When Human Resources Goes Global: How Multinational Corporations Can Align Company Culture Across Borders

Hey, Chuck. Thank you so much for making time today. I really appreciate it. You know, as we talk through on this, this podcast, we like to talk through about stories of growth, right, and how people have grown both in their career and business and in life and whatnot. And one of the things that you've been able to do over the course of your career since I've known you and even before then is you've continued to progress. And now you're the global head of HR for Permapipe, a global company. And I think you were just you just came from overseas came back from overseas. So how tell us a little bit about the role you're in now, if you don't mind. And then, and then let's talk about how you got there. Thank you. First of all, thank you for having me. It's great to reconnect with you and and have this conversation. So I I joined Perma Pipe in September of last year as their global head of HR. We operate in, six different countries. You know, we're about, almost you know, we're approaching that two hundred million dollar in revenue. You know, we, operate in North America and the Middle East. As you highlighted, I I I just made my first trip over to the Middle East in January, which was a very great experience, hit, the UAE and Saudi Arabia, where we have facilities, there. We're a global engineered pipe services company, so we don't make the pipe, but we make it better. So we a lot of our goods are applied to what we call DHC, which is distributive heating and cooling. So a lot around steam plants or or physical plants and, hospitals and universities, airports. You know, we also do a lot of, fuel transfer, you know, especially when you have tank farms. You're moving fuel from a big tank farm down to the where the planes park at the in the parts of the runway and stuff. So, you know, we do a lot of business in Canada where we're both oil and gas and and also a lot of water. But, you know, with the extreme temperatures of Canada, you you've gotta have pipe that's well insulated. So a a lot of our pipe is either specially coated or specially treated with polyurethane and, is used in a variety of applications. So it's it's kinda fun because, PermaPlite, majority of their business is not oil and gas, which is it's been a while since I've been in a company that that's not majority oil and gas. We do oil and gas, and we do we've done a lot of work in oil and gas, but most of our work is around the heating and cooling and any infrastructure projects. Wow. That's that's interesting. I wouldn't have guessed that. And and then when you talk about you've got locations around the globe, how do you how do you manage, you know, with people up in, you know, Canada and then the Middle East and and whatnot? How do you how do you manage that on a day in and day out basis? Well, you gotta have a good team. That's that's one. I think two is making sure that we're clear on what our strategic priorities are. So, you know, from the standpoint of, you know, workforce planning, make sure we have enough, you know, headcount to execute the job, make sure they're trained to do the things that they need to do. We're meeting customer expectations. I I have a good network of I've got two strong regional HR directors that has teams below them at typically at our local sites. And so we work very hard together to ensure that we're pulling all in the same direction, you know, around people. And it's, you know, org design development, succession planning, talent identification, talent development, you know, making sure we're engaging with our people communications, and also that they understand the strategic direction of of where the company's going. You know, we we just are starting our fiscal year. In February, we're rolling out our, you know, what our strat plan looks like for the next three years. We're aligning our goals to that strat plan and making sure that everybody's, as we like to say in the south, singing off the same songbook. You know? So part of HR's role is to ensure that the people are engaged and moving along with the organization results, you know, that we wanna achieve. You know, and I I love the way you phrased that. And, especially, at the beginning when you were you were talking about the business and you were able to talk about the business in detail in terms of both the product, the technology, what the company does, where it does it, and the customers that they serve. I think a lot of times, people earlier in their career think of HR as just being focused on, you know, plugging the right people in or managing people issues behind the scenes. But I think, you know, what I've learned over the course of my career is HR is a critical strategic function that's got to understand the business and be a a business partner. Right? So, yeah, to talk a little bit about that. I I I think, I've been fortunate. I've had some really good mentors in my career, and I remember specifically, I came to Houston in the mid nineties. Penzoil brought me here, and, a guy by the name of Chris Curio was the VP of HR for I worked for Jiffy Lube's division, so I supported all the retail oil change outlets in the Midwest. So but he was the first one that really said, hey. Are you looking at the POS system every day? Are you seeing what our stores are doing? You know, our ticket our average ticket price, you know, what drives our business. And so he was very good about helping me get a better understanding of the value HR ads and how it fits into the business. And that really changed my whole perspective about the role that that I should play as an HR leader. And, I've taken that forward. So everywhere I've gone, you know, I I understand the business. I understand the p and l. I under you know, HR is a cost, and anything that we propose or wanna do has to have a return. You know, there has to be a value that's added. So that's that's a big thing I preach with my folks is, okay. We're gonna do this. What are we returning to the business? So whether it's recruiting initiatives or benefits changes or, you know, the step plan, a short term incentive plan, You know, it's it's it's gotta return a value to the business. If you don't understand how the business works, you can't be a valued partner as as an HR leader. Yeah. That's I love the way you phrase that because it's it's a critical requirement, and there's a lot of times that I I see people get wrapped around the axle on performing a function or a job and just looking at it with blinders on. Right? And it's it's recognizing that you've gotta really understand you've gotta be an x you've gotta be excellent and an expert in your function, but you've gotta understand the impact to the business. And it's all it's it's everyone's job to help improve and grow that business. Yeah. As absolutely. And it it you have better conversations. You ask better questions. I think one of the traits that served me really well, Mike, is I'm curious. I'm very curious. I'm very curious about people. I love understanding people's stories and background and how they got to where they are. But I'm also curious about how the business works and how we make decisions and, you know, why we hire certain people and, you know, why why are we looking at these acquisitions and or or whatever. So that if you have that curiosity, it could really serve you well. But but the other piece of it when you're talking about relationships, that curiosity helps you make connections, that you find commonalities with people, and that makes the relationship a lot more, robust and and valuable. I think, you know, and I'll again, I'll shout out to another mentor, a guy named Al Scruggs, who I worked in the textile industry to start my career, and he saw something in me as a young recruiter and said, hey. You need to get out of corporate recruiting and and get into the, you know, to the operation side, manufacturing side of the business if you wanna go anywhere. And the best piece of advice he ever gave me, he said relationships are like bank accounts. You make deposits and you make withdrawals, but you never wanna overdraw the account. And I use I have used that for a lot of years. I'm not gonna say how many, but Yeah. No. I I love that. It was funny. I heard somebody once say that, you know, trust comes in drips and leaves and buckets, and and it's the same thing. Right? You you make deposits in. And when if you've gotta make a withdrawal on something, it it typically coming into this role, as as you've gotten a flavor for, I've been very diligent about going out there, meeting people, building starting relationships, building relationships because I know at some point, I'm gonna have to make some withdrawals on certain things, and it's a lot easier to talk to a wad in Saudi Arabia if he knows who I am or at least has a basic understanding of, okay. He's a decent guy, and he's he's interested in in what I do. And and that's that's the other thing about global travel. Right? If you if you go different places, I've been very lucky. I've I would have never imagined I've been to the places that I've been to. And we have so much in common, Mike. I mean, it's it's, you know, my HR person in in, UAE has a family and kids, and he's trying to get move things forward and do the best for himself and his family. And, yeah, has some of the same struggles and challenges that I do, you know, raising my kids. So it's you look for those commonalities. You make these connections. It's it can be very powerful. I love the way you phrased that. That's really well said. So it as you're thinking about that and those commonalities, one of the things that I've seen is you've continued to progress throughout your career. You've you've always, you know, taken steps forward and advanced whatnot. What brought you to PermaPipe? What was it that that you was you found was really intriguing? Right? And then if you look back over the course of your career, was there one point where you're like, this made a a career changing impact on me? Oh, boy. That's a great question. You know, PermaPipe was an opportunity. I've been in the, services business. I was in the testing and inspection business, which, actually, I've been in for ten years earlier in my career. And and you talk about connections. One of my former bosses became CEO at that that came in and reached out to me and said, hey. I need a a new h head of HR, and actually had done that twice. First time, I couldn't do it, and second time, I did it. So, the power of connections. And so it was I wanted to get back into manufacturing. So PermaPipe, you know, we we do we don't make the pipe, but we do we do have manufacturing processes. So it's good to get back in that. I wanted, obviously, international global company, but also publicly traded. You know, I haven't been in a a true publicly traded company since I worked at TechPeap FMC. Next year was publicly traded, but it was majority owned private equity. So the dynamics are different a little bit. So it and and and, also, it was thirty minutes from my house, Mike. So, I mean, it it it it it all those things kinda came. It was a perfect storm of the right things coming together. One of the board members is a former colleague of ours. So when you when you got these connections and know that these are people that you can trust and then and then, also, just my conversations with the CEO, I just really felt like we could partner well together. And so far, that's been really true. So I really like the CEO I'm working for. I like the executive team. CFO and I are really clicking together. And so when you have those type of executive team that's got those kind of relationships, it's it's very similar to what we talked about, at Dresser. Right? I mean, that was still probably the best management team I ever worked with was it was it Dresser. FMC was number two, but this is certainly, you know, starting that climb to match or exceed, you know, those those teams. Really? That because you're you're right. And when we think back on on our career that the way that that leadership team was put together, the alignment, the clarity of focus. Right? And, I mean, it wasn't without problems. It definitely had challenges, but but there was just genuine alignment on that team. And, like, we knew we knew why we were coming to work. We knew what we were trying to do. And if there was if there was conflict, it was conflict over the right way to do something. It wasn't conflict over, you know, who gets one office. Right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Alright. Yeah. So those those are the things you take with you. Right? And so when you can find those again, as you talked about, you know, my career path has been really interesting because, like it or not, I've been involved in a lot of mergers and acquisitions. So, you know, if Dresser was still Dresser today, I'd probably still be there. But it got bought by GE, and so we got sucked into that, you know, vortex and and spent three I spent three years figuring that thing out, and I learned a lot. It was a great experience, but I was I was ready to eject. And Mark Scott was at FMC, and he said, hey. I want you to come over and and, you know, take over this our biggest business unit from an HR perspective. And, you know, and so it was it was a great experience. And, you know, I I hit the peak of the when the industry was hitting the peak in twenty fourteen, and then, you know, I rode the wave wave down in twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen. So, but, again, great experience with their big merger with the French company technique, which learning experience, took on a big new role, had some unique experiences, and then it was the right time to do something else. So, it's either figuring out, you know, taking advantage of opportunities is one. Two is making sure you have a good network and people that you know because a lot of my jobs have come from referrals or, hey. We want you to come back or come work for me or you know? So I've been very fortunate. I've been very lucky, and I and I'm very grateful for that. So Yeah. That that makes a lot of sense. So I guess it's you think about that and, you know, most of these opportunities I if I had to distill down based off of what I heard from you is you got some critical advice that really sunk home in the sense of it's a bank account, and then you've been making deposits at that ever since, and then that's been paying off in these other opportunities that have come out. Yep. I mean, that's, David Brown said, you know, hey. I'm reaching out to you because I saw the things you did at at Dresser, and and, you know, I think that's some of the things that we need. So, you never know the impression that you make sometimes. Right? You never know what how you leave it, but you certainly will leave it in the best way that you can. Now I will tell you not all my departures have been perfect. You know, there have been certainly personality conflicts and just not the right alignment, not the right match from a personality standpoint. You you have those, but you learn from them. And then when you make that leap again, you make sure that you got the right things in alignment that you know you're gonna thrive. Yeah. So let's let's double click on that for a second and and and look at it and say when if you think back and without going into the all the gory details, you think back on one of those where there was a a point of friction, Right? And there wasn't good alignment. How have you been able to navigate through that, learn from it, and and accelerate out of it? Yeah. I think I I think the biggest probably the biggest example that pops in my head is when I was so next year was a merger that happened between Keane and C and J, and I was hired at Keane as the head of HR. The CEO that hired me didn't tell me that he was gonna go to the chairmanship a month after I joined. So they brought in a new CEO who didn't hire me, didn't know me, and but we made it work for a while, you know, because we were kinda we were in the same boat. We were both new, and we were trying to change things. And the first year was really good. And then the second year, we decided to merge, a downturn in the industry, big pressure to, you know, let's quickly flip everything. Let's you know, when we merged at Technip FMC, it was a what they call lift and shift. Right? They lifted things. They shifted it, and they kinda put it together but left it alone because they didn't wanna screw it up. Man, when we merged at Keane and C and J, we're like, okay. Four months. We're gonna merge everything, comp, benefits, you know, structure, leadership. And it was it was brutal. It was it was a brutal experience. And when you're not in full alignment with how to approach things with your CEO, you know, we made it work. We got through the merger. We closed the deal, but we both knew that, you know, post merger, we were not the right team to lead it. And and part of it is, you know, I come from a different place. My my CEO had come from Schlumberger. I had come from other parts of the industry. Schlumberger, if you look at that that culture, they're they they kinda gravitate to each other. If you look if you look at the management teams and you see x Schlumberger on it, you typically see multiple people because they like that culture. They understand how to work it. But they also have a different philosophy on HR. I mean, they put a lot of their operational people through that HR mode, and and you may see HR leaders that don't have any HR experience. So it's I mean, it's a different philosophy, and it worked it works for Schlumberger and but it it it was not the right connection for me. And I probably had he been in charge, I may not have been the HR leader, you know, picked for that. Who knows? But, you know, but that really taught me that it really matters. You want the CEO to pick you. You want because as different people describe to me, I mean, CEO job is a lonely job, and they need somebody that can be their confidant, configurial, and, you know, that they can ultimately trust. And so you wanna you want that relationship to be very solid, and and that was a huge takeaway for me out of the next year experience. I like that. I don't that's that's huge. You want the CEO to pick you. Right? And then I'm also thinking back to, you know, reputational management. Right? And the the other piece that this is fantastic. So when you when you go through, you think about, alright, your experience at Next Tier and then you were at TalentIQ, then you made the the jump from TalentIQ to to Cayman. How did how'd you make that transition from TalentIQ to to Cayman? Yeah. Was that because of relationships? Or Relationship. You know, I left next year when we merged. I I I was one of the execs that left. So I was fortunate to to have a parachute jumped off with a parachute, but I wanted to keep my hands dirty. And, lady I worked with at at FMC, Catherine Gillings, had, had her own firm, TalentIQ, and she invited me to operate under her her umbrella. And so I did different consulting things while I was determining what my next move was gonna be. And, you know, I did some work for our old friends at at the new dresser utility solutions now, I think is what they call themselves. Yes. Dresser utilities. I'm I'm some work for for Dave Evans, which was great, because I, you know, I knew a lot of the players. I know the business very well. He had some young HR leaders. I did I did some talent development and training, leadership training. Also helped them with the benefits integration, changing their benefits and saving them about three hundred thousand dollars. You know, and I got recruited to help the Red Cross out with COVID, and, I got asked to help, you know, HR Houston did a whole public service thing for people that were out of work from from the pandemic. So, we we did some some pro bono work helping people with, you know, resumes and interviewing and etcetera. So in some ways, I reinvented myself, I like to say, because it was I mean, having not ever been a consultant before was it's totally different. You you know that. So it was really different. And through that experience, I built some really great relationships with some peers who were going through some similar situations. And, it's it's it's a group we may talk about, but it we call ourselves the breakfast club, and we ended up, you know, writing articles together and doing some podcasts. And, and we still meet every other week. We they're all we're all heads of HR, CHROs, and, you know, it's a great to have a group that a sounding board group that you can hey. Have you how do you handle this, or what have you done with that? Or, hey. You know, hey. I heard that there's a job opportunity, so and so. You know? So it's, but it's also like a mental health support group too. And, you know, that that's part of the vernacular now that, you know, mental health is much more accepted or understood perhaps how real it is. And and I can tell you, you know, frankly, that group has helped me through some tough times. So, you know, I lost my dad about two years ago, and, you know, I've I've had some some yeah. Thank you. But I mean, I just as an example, that group was helpful because another guy had lost his debt. So, I mean, it's you you you get those things. And, so that that group's been very important to me, especially since about twenty twenty. But you're talking about Cayman, to answer the rest of your question, the CEO was a guy I worked for at InterTech back twenty years ago, in that industry. And, we had come into a difficult situation. It was all about private equity. They were trying to go public. They had issues with the EPA and to self report. So they brought me as a new HR leader, and they brought him in to clean up the organization, get the litigation settled with the EPA. I mean, I saw people go to jail, because of what had happened. So and then I got the the unique experience of pleading guilty on behalf of the company in federal district court in New Jersey of all places. So talk about a unique experience. Never done it and never will hopefully, we'll repeat it, but, I learned a lot from that about how compliance if you don't have good compliance, it could go really wrong. Yeah. That's well, and you think back to the folks that we know, right, in compliance, going back to our dresser days, I'm thinking about, like, Martha Martha Bixby. Right? And, just I remember, you know, the folks throughout my career that were in compliance and and and drove that as a function. And and early on, I was like, really? You gotta be kidding me. And then and then to your point, right, all of a sudden you start you start getting exposed to what happens when when you fall out of compliance. The consequences are disastrous. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It it is it it is I mean, it it not just bankrupt the company, but to your point, go to jail. Right? It is it's bad enough financially, but then if you're talking about having to do jail time, all my word, I I I love the folks at compliance. It's like, hey. You are my friend. Like, this great. Come on in. Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's it's interesting. You're speaking about compliance. If you remember Jackie Trevino with Her. Yes. She and I had a really good relationship because I respected the role that she played and that HR needed to be a good partner with that. And so, she invited us to come to this compliance this national compliance conference, all the dresser HR leads. And, man, that whole conference, all I heard was how what a lousy partner HR was, you know, and how they they mess things up. They don't do things right. And I said, Jackie, I said, you and I need to figure out how we can speak at a conference at this conference next year because we do things right, and we have a great partnership. And it can work. It can work. So she loved that idea, and so we ended up speaking that next year at the national conference about how HR and compliance can work together and be successful. So that was, my first time speaking at a national conference. So that was pretty cool. That's awesome. That is really cool. And to your point, I think one of the things that gets lost on folks is it's so easy to complain and find what's wrong. But a lot of these organizations want to be able to highlight when it goes right. Right? And and I I wanna encourage people as much as anything. Well, if you've got something that's going right, let's champion it. Right? Get out there and and tell people what's going on. That's we're not talking about perfection because there really is no such thing as perfection. But it is that you can when you find when I like to use the phrase pockets of brilliance or, you know, or you know, there's there's pockets of brilliance in every company, and those need to be those need to be celebrated and held up and built on. And so it as you think about where you're at at Perma Pipe right now, like, where are a couple of those pockets of brilliance? Oh, this this company has a long history. It's it's been through different iterations, but it's it's got a very solid reputation in the market. So the type product that we produce, we have some unique aspects to it that differentiate us in the market. And and so we we, in some cases, are able to ask for a little bit of a premium because of that the capability of that product. You know, we've start we have a really good, strategy in the Middle East. I mean, it's a booming area. Mike, I I can't tell you how much construction I saw around Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Dammam in the Saudi Arabia, Riyadh, tons of stuff going on, lots of building, lots of infrastructure, so lots of pipe. So, for example, the tallest building in the world in Dubai, the the Khalifa building, it has permapipe pipe in its construction for DHC. Yeah. So, there's been projects at the White House that we've supplied pipe for. So it it it's a lot of people don't know that, but it's we've done some really cool stuff, and we have a product that differentiates itself. So, I mean, the Middle East has really taken off. You know, Riad wants to be the next Dubai. And I said Neville Gold. Gold, good luck. Yeah. But, you know, the the Ramco is just continuing to try to move and groove. But if if you read the journal the other day that they were talking about the the wealth fund there in Saudi Arabia and how much money they're spending on airports and buildings and, you know, housing and, you know, they wanna be a green energy giant. I mean, they're really trying to they're really trying hard to diversify. You know, in in Middle East countries, it's interesting dynamics because you have a lot of third country nationals that do the work. So, you know, we we're very multinational, multicultural in the Middle East more than people would think because we're pulling in Filipinos and Pakistanis and Indians and, Africans, all come in, to work in these countries because the money they make, they cannot do it in their own home countries. So it. But the challenging part is a lot of these people, they have families where they left their families. Right? So a lot of people, their family lives in India or in Bangladesh or in Manila, and they're here working, and they might get a month off or two months off to go back home, but that's it. So they leave their families because that it's the way they can support them. So, and, you know, you kinda you kinda see that in the fracking industry where, you know, North Dakota, for example, you're pulling people from all over the country to to do the fracking work. And they're fourteen days on and seven days off. It's it's a tough lifestyle, but, man, they make good money. I mean, they they they definitely make a premium and that, you know, they have a high school degree typically. So but they do that to support their family. So it's it's interesting. We talked about those commonalities and connections earlier that, you know, it's we're not unique in the US to the things that that happen. You know, a lot of countries have similar challenges. That's it's wild when you think about it like that. And also going back to what you were talking about on the mental health piece of things, because a lot of times, when you're in the office or you're in the field, when you're working, right, you're just thinking, okay. Everybody here is is working, and you don't realize the baggage that they bring with them. And and when I say baggage, right, some of it's good and some of it's bad just like in anything. Right? And if they're thinking about their family back home and they've been away for ten months and it it's going to affect their performance at work. Yeah. I I you know, I can the what I can relate to is we when I moved to Houston in the mid nineties, I was here six months before my family came from Georgia, and that was brutal. You know? I had two young kids, two and three. I think they were their ages, and my wife's by herself. Another unique aspect that I I kinda wanna highlight. I'm glad you talk about I don't wanna call it baggage, but but, you know, the the loads that people carry, we don't know sometimes. And so I I have two kids with autism forms of autism, and, that's really had a a impact on on me and and our family. And, you know, we moved to Houston because we knew we couldn't stay in Georgia. We knew we needed to be in a larger city with better schools and and and but, also, I kinda knew I needed to be in a better place to advance my career. So it's moving to Texas, moving to Houston was a huge opportunity for us, and it's really paid off. My my kids have have thrived considering their challenges, you know, career wise. I could never imagine the things I've been able to do, in my career here being living in Houston. And, so, but my kids have made me a better person, Mike. I truly believe that. And, you know, my my son with if you know people with have Asperger's, I mean, you you gotta live by a schedule. You you gotta plan ahead. You gotta communicate ahead of time or you're gonna rock their world. And if you think about the business applications of that, you know, I I Katherine Gillins used to tell me my superpower was I could see around corners. And part of that superpower comes from, you know, my son because of, you know, having to help him navigate the world. And we talk about the commonalities too that a lot of times oh, I I can tell you I was reluctant in the past to tell people that I had two kids with with autism because I didn't want it to be a burden. I didn't want them to feel sad or, you know, feel bad for me. So but I learned that in a lot of ways, it helped because people had they didn't necessarily have kids with autism, but they had other things. You know? And so you find those commonalities. But, fortunately or unfortunately, I also found a lot of people that had kids with autism. So it's it's it's much more known about and prevalent in our culture than it was thirty years ago. I mean, when my two kids were born, they were unique. Diff I had three different universities come and wanna study our blood because it was unusual to see two kids with autism in in a in a family. But it's, unfortunately, it's common now or it's somewhat common. So it's it's that's been an interesting journey in itself and learning what we could do to help my kid my kids thrive. You know? So that's had a significant impact on myself and and some ways my career. Thank you for for sharing that. It's interesting in that, you know, I I'm huge. I'm a big faith guy. And, from that that perspective, I was listening to someone talk, and they'd grown up with, dyslexia and is is it dysmorphia, I think, or something like that where it's the shapes, right, kind of get get bottled up as well and and ADHD, extreme ADHD. And he said, you know, I went through most of my younger life being told all of these things that it was wrong with me. And he said, but he said, I fundamentally believe that we're perfectly and wonderfully made and that, you know, we're made with a purpose in mind. And the the thing of it is is there's no normal. There is, we each are gifted. And he said, so instead of looking at my ADHD and my dyslexia as a problem, if I look at it as an opportunity, he said, I I can process things faster than the the normal person. I can I can look at problems and see things in a different angle, in a different way than anybody else can? And so that means I can find solutions that other people can't find. And he said, is it nor is it is it what the average person going through school and the way they see it? No. It's not. But that doesn't make me disadvantaged. It creates an advantage for me. I've just gotta learn how to use that in advantage Yeah. To in a way. Yeah. It's it's I'm I'm I love the way that you've put that, Mike, because, for example, my my son is is, there's a spectrum in in autism and mild and more severe, and my kids kinda are bookends in a way. And my my son is is mild, and you meet him, you you wouldn't know it initially, but, but you pick up social cues, and and, his processing speed is not that great. But he drives. He has a job. And we figured out one of the things that we figured out that he had this unique kind of skill with animals. And so we were able to tailor his education in high school around FFA. And so raised first raised a goat and then chickens and rabbits and and, and then we decided, okay. Well, so we bought three acres outside of Tomball, and and we bred cows for a while. And so I went back to my roots. My grandfather had a thirty acre farm, cows and horses and chickens and you know? So we raised, we've raised cows and chickens. We had goats for a while, and he would go to shows. We would the State Fair at Texas, the Houston Livestock Show, Talk about some unique talk about interesting cultures and unique, people. Go do circles in the in the cattle industry, in the breeding, sector. But he, you know, he he won grand champion at a couple of things, and, you know, he we were able to to to figure out a an outlet, an avenue for him and which led to a job at a dog resort, which led to a job with a vet, you know, where he works now. And, you know, we weren't sure when he was five what he was gonna be able to do. So it's it's interesting. You know, if you you follow, if you allow people to exhibit and you support them and where they're gravitating to, it's amazing what can happen. Yeah. There's a I love that. There's a proverb along those lines that says, train up a child in the way they should go, and when they grow old, they will not depart from it. And a lot of times, historically, people have misconstrued that, which is pound that round square into a round peg into a square hole and tell them how they're supposed to behave. Right? And what that actually means and what it comes from is, the original language was more about, like, shaping an arrow in the direction of the wood that it was going so that the arrow could fly straight and further and more accurately than it could if you tried to go against the grain and and make it be make all the arrows perfect. It was like, no. Follow the wood of the grain, and that arrow will actually go further and more accurately than it ever could have gone. And so, like, training up your children and taking us and our unique gifts and applying them in the way that they were created for us to go, we'll go so much further and do so much more. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, he's he's never gonna, you know, solve physics problems or anything like that, but at least he's found a passion that he likes. He's accepted at his job. He's, you know, they he's been their most stable employee in the last five years. So, I mean, you you know, and he'll, you know, it it's the routine. Right? He's at work by six thirty. He works till noon. He comes home. He works out. He takes care of the animals, and, you know, then he watches TV. So, I mean, it's he's in that cycle, but, but it's good for him. And he has a reason. He has and, you know, my daughter's a little more complicated, but we've we have found things. It was a great program. It was a great place called Brookwood, and they have really some great programs for adults with disabilities. And at some point, she'll probably they have a campus where people live, and probably ten years from now, whatever, she'll be there. But, but, you know, it's it's challenging. Once your kids with disabilities get out of high school, it's difficult. There's not as much support and opportunity for them. So it's it's really on the parents to figure out, okay, where where are we gonna what are the avenues, to drive and what how can they be how can they have some viability in their life? So, yeah, it's it's it's not easy. And listen, first, big kudos and shout out to my wife because she has done tremendous work navigating the school system and and fighting for rights of our kids. And she created those opportunities that you know, my daughter was in a in a normal classroom all through all through elementary school. She had a full time aide, but, man, she thrived. I mean, it was a great experience. She had friends, and and so it it worked really well. Now doctor junior high didn't work as well. So we had to we had to make changes, and and it was painful. But but we figured out what to do, and we got her into a good program for her high school year. So, but, man, any any parent that has kids with disabilities, it's it's a it's a difficult path. And but I was thankful enough that my wife we could allow my wife to focus on that. You know, she stopped working after we got to Houston, and she's done, she's my hero because she's done a great job of navigating life for these kids. And and it's you know, for us, it's not over. It's it it'll be part of who we are until we till we leave this Earth. So that's the biggest challenge for people like us is figuring out what what's what's gonna happen to your kids after you're gone. Wow. So when I I it's amazing if you think about your career and the way that you've been able to progress and been able to balance that with, as a as a dad of kids with disabilities. How how often, right, have you found that that tug? Right? And how have you managed how you manage that tug between those two? That's that's a good question. Yeah. It's been challenging. I know again, I'll shout out to my wife. Right? Because, I mean, I've had jobs to be able to progress in the jobs that I've done. I have to travel. You know? I have to go places and, you know, it's not easy, to shoulder that burden. So, you know, we were fortunate. My in laws moved here, after Katrina. So they became a big support network for us. You know, my my my family lives in Alabama, but they've been very supportive. When we needed them, they'd come. You know? And, you know, part of it is you know, Mike, you talk about relationships. Part of it is, you know, making sure that you remember why you're together, you know, and and don't let it consume you. And and for a long time, it was you all you were mainly focused on was the kids. Right? And especially as they were growing older. And and then, you know, probably about the time I got the dresser, we figured out, okay. We gotta start making sure we carve out a little time, you know, for us. And whether it's just doing a date or getting away or for weekend or so we've we've tried to do a better job of that because we know that our relationship needs to remain healthy for us to be able to give everything that we need to give, you know, for our kids. So and and we've seen a lot unfortunately, a lot of marriages fall apart, you know, because because of the strain of of having kids with disabilities. So, you know, it's but, again, you gotta invest in it. Right? Or you gotta be you gotta be empathetic to what's going on, and she can have just as hard a day or worse than I can have at work. And, you know, again, you in the beginning, you'd always learn that lesson, but, you know, now I'm a lot more attuned to that than I used to be. So, Yeah. It's it's it's it's it's not easy, but, man, again, I have a stellar queen of the universe wife, and, she, she rocks. I like that. Right? It's the power of a spouse. Was was listening to a podcast with, Tim Ferris and Brene Brown. It's an old one now. Right? And they they were talking about that. She was saying that she and her husband have a a system where they're like they know that there's never a day where they're both gonna be at a hundred percent and and that there's some days where they're both gonna be under underwater, so to speak. And so they they'll just come in and they they've got us how was your day or whatever. And they've got a scale where they're, like, on a scale of one to a hundred, and they're, like, if they can't coequal, you know, combined equal hundred, they know, alright. We're gonna they've got playbooks that they've figured out. Like, and if they both come in and they're, like, twenty, they're like, oh, we're getting pizza. Not even a restaurant. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just right? It's it's yeah. Hey. Hard day. Hard day. Okay. Pizza. Let's go. Yeah. So my wife will text me. She goes, what are you bringing home for dinner tonight? So I I know that okay. Alright. This is I gotta alright. Well, what am I bringing? What do you know, where do you want? And And and the other thing we we've done too is is like, for example, we both like musical theater, and, so we bought season tickets to Tuts, which is the theater here in Broadway. And so we, you know, we carve out a Sunday matinee every month or so, and that's our date kinda thing. But it's on the calendar. It's gonna happen. You know? And we plan around it to to make it happen because we enjoy that time together and something we enjoy doing together. So you you gotta figure those things out. So Yes. It's it's so important. Right? And, I like what you also said because I I think some of the best advice we were given as young parents is that you're a family and your kids are welcome addition to it is the way it was phrased. It kinda rocked my world hearing that in the sense that as it's like because I was like, no. We're married. And they're like, yeah. But your kids are going to come, and then they're they're going to launch in some form or fashion. Right? And, and then if there's still gonna be the two of you. And and the healthiest and the best gift that you can give them is a healthy marriage. And, and it's so often yeah. We see people that just they they start worshiping their kids. Right? And their kids become the center of their marriage, and then all of a sudden things fall apart later. And it's like, well, what happened? Well, it's because the marriage became second, third, or fourth place, and and it's like but the best gift you can give your kids is to keep that marriage first place. Yeah. It's it's it's not easy because the the kid I mean, literally, my daughter can't be left alone. I mean, somebody has to watch my daughter all the time. So, you know, tip typically on weekends, you know, I I'm it's my shift kinda thing. You know? It's Yes. For her to do whatever she wants to do, and and we'll do things together too. But, yeah, there's also now granted, it gives me time to watch sports, but, but it's nighttime. You know? I gotta make sure that she gets fed and all that good stuff and does it in a mischief and, you know, so, but anyway amazed at how you've done that. Tough. And I just want just huge shout out to you and your wife, because that that is a noble calling that you I know it's one you didn't choose, but it is one that you've responded to. And I just wanna say thank you. Well, I appreciate that, but, tell my wife that, not me. Okay. I gotta give up I really gotta give credit to her a lot. So, I mean, it's it's, I'm I'm I'm she is super parent, and, you know, I'm I'm there to, carry her train. Okay. So, two two quick questions before we wrap up. One and and I hadn't expected this in in the way we were going. But if you were talking to parents of kids with disabilities, right, that are career oriented, One advice you said was support each other, right, and bring empathy. But the other one is how do you how do you is there any other piece of advice you would give them to be successful in their career and successful at home? You know, I think one of the things is be authentic and be be allow yours I mean, you have to pick the times to be vulnerable, so to speak, but at the same time, it can show your humanity. Right? And, I think in business a lot of times although I'd say it's a lot different now, but used to be you didn't show emotion. You didn't show feeling. You were you were, you know, yes. I'll work ninety hour weeks, and, yes, I will answer emails on the weekend. And you know? And so I think, you know, we're the generational change, we we could spend a whole hour talking about that. And I and I think now the business atmosphere, it's a lot more open. And I think for you for the Gen Zers or the millennials, if you can show them your vulnerabilities or your authentic authenticity, it can help a lot break some of those barriers down. And I think as a as a parent with I'm very open about it now. I tell people pretty quickly about it, you know, because, hey. That's who I am. That's hey. If you know me, that's part of the package. Right? And sometimes, you know, I gotta I'd like every Monday, I drop my daughter off at at Methodist for her program. I don't get in till eight forty five that day. So, you know, that's that's I do that because that gives my wife a whole day off. When I do that, then that gives her a whole day. And, you know, so so those are the little things that you know? And I'm a guy. I like to get in here at seven, seven thirty. So, you know, I I I I get the shakes sometimes if I'm not here by, you know, before eight forty five. It's but I'm old. I'm but that's part of my old school work ethic. Right? So Identify. Yeah. I know you can. I know you can. It's you you do. Right? But then I I totally am with you on the being torn, right, between the two. It's this, hey. No. It's my commitment to my family. But I'm supposed to be at work. Right? And yeah. Oh, yeah. And I you know, it's I I usually leave till six six ish, right, from the office. Man, if I leave before my boss does, I get and he doesn't care. I mean, he's very supportive, but I feel weird. You know, I don't feel right because granted, I get in here before he does, but it you know, still, it's it's just one of those old school ethos work ethic things that you know? Yeah. Yes. Yep. Absolutely. Okay. One other piece of advice that you would give to yourself twenty years ago. Twenty years ago? Twenty years ago. If he could go back to you twenty years ago, right, in current day or whatever and just sit, knowing what you know now, what would you what would you advise? I'd say probably one thing I would say is probably be if you could be and and, again, when you're younger in your career, you can't always be as picky, but knowing who you're going to work for better can make help you make a better decision. Like, for example, when when I was looking at taking this job at PermaPipe, yeah, I had some great interviews. I said, but, hey. I wanna go to dinner with you. I wanna get to know you better. I wanna understand who you are as a person. And he thought that was great, you know, that I wanna invest that kind of time before I decide to make that kind of decision. And I think companies, a lot of times, they struggle to give people an authentic view of what it's really gonna be like. I I just hired a couple people on my team, and I I spent an hour and a half with them, you know, in the interview. But I first said, okay. Here's my background. This is my career. Okay? And then now here's me as a person. Kids and, you know, I'm musical. I sang in choirs. Hey. If I you know, I'm gonna break out in songs sometimes. You know, I love Auburn football, and so I'm a passionate college football fan. You know, my dad was a big personality, and he really had an impact on me. And so, you know, I have stuff prepared that I go through with people. But, hey, I want you to know, if you're gonna come work for me, this is who I am. So, I think you could solve a lot of problems because you hire people sometimes. You don't worry about the fit the fit. Right? Whether it's culturally or with that leader because I look for people that are compliment me, not are the same as me. You know? Right. That's a great leadership lesson is to be comfortable hiring people that aren't your clone. And, you know, I married somebody that is completely different than me, Mike, and it's been great. And same thing, my best teams, dresser, FMC, you know, now are people that are smarter than me or they're different than me. Yes. I love it. Alright. So I've gotten some incredible takeaways from this. Right? Just to run through them real quick. Your relationships and your your reputation is a bank account. Make sure it's full and you're making deposits more than withdrawals. Don't overdraw it. You want the CEO to pick you or you want your boss to pick you and, find the pockets of brilliance in the company where you're at and build on those. Make sure you've got, the power of a spouse and a support network. And specifically if parents of disabilities be authentic and have empathy. And then, know who you're going to work for better and, become be comfortable with complementarianism more so than being identical. That's great. Perfect. That's that's fantastic. And then the other thing at some point we'll need to talk about is The Breakfast Club. I'd love to hear more about that the next time. Love to. So hey, Chuck. Thank you so much. Quick question for you. If people wanna get in touch with you, is LinkedIn the best way? Probably the easiest way. I check it regularly. You know, I answer messages. So if you reach out to me, I'll respond. I'll link them. Okay. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Chuck. I appreciate it. Have a great day. Man.