Southwest Airlines’ Biggest Mistake? Forgetting Its Community—A Wake-Up Call for B2B Marketers

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. I'm your host, as always, Ben Thomas. And it's been an interesting month for a company called Southwest Airlines. So we sorta had to call an emergency session of congress and bring on a couple folks who, know a couple things, not only about the world of Southwest Airlines because they're frequent travelers, but also the power of brand equity and the power of customer centricity, not only in the world of airlines, right, which is the catalyst for the conversation, but in our industry as well. Right? We live in a world that's so centric, around brand equity and influencers and brand trust and identity that no longer can the world of, productization continue to thrive in the way that it once did. Because now as we all move to, sort of a commoditization of the industry, which I don't know that we all wanna admit, but, things like brand equity are more powerful than they have ever been. So to have this conversation, I brought on a couple folks that I trust mightily who get to live in the world, of both the marketing, customer retention, loyalty, and even some of the great product sales, and development side of things. So I've got David Venus from Yamaha and Jeff Bogus from Checkr. Gentlemen, thanks so much for coming on the show. Hey. Thanks for having me. Appreciate, appreciate you bringing me on, Ben. Yeah. It's always good, Ben. I I appreciate you even taking, taking my word for it, I guess, these days. Yeah. No. What's funny so we we were all kinda going back and forth on LinkedIn, and and that's where the the the idea for the podcast popped up. But, you know, Jeff, it's interesting. You know, when you you made your post, obviously, you you are are sort of a fan of Southwest as well. We are here as well naturally being in Dallas. You brought some really nice perspectives to the table. Right? And I wanna start there. Talk a little bit about your perspective of the shift and then set the table. We'll dive in from there. Yeah. I I think what's really interesting for me is just, like, the the differentiators. Right? Being a product marketer, I'm always looking at, like, what sets a company apart. And so I got this email, just, yesterday morning, and it it threw me off. I I knew some changes were coming. I heard about, you know, sign seating, which already was gonna be a huge bummer. But I had no idea that they were gonna start charging for bags. So when I saw this, it immediately grabbed my attention because, I mean, this is what I felt Southwest was built upon was just what set them apart. And I feel like I've made this post and a lot of people are resonating with that. And so I I'm I'm calling it, am I calling it brand suicide yet? I'm not sure, but, it definitely feels like it. You know, the the no change fees, the free check bags, you know, great attitudes. It's just starting to, like, chip away at all those things that that made Southwest what it was. So, that's my standpoint. My my small intro into how I got into this conversation is just really Southwest, I think, underestimating the the emotional loyalty to these things. And and David's got a maybe a stronger perspective on it too, especially somebody who gets to live out in Nashville. Southwest, for a lot of musicians, was sort of their lifeblood from a checked baggage standpoint because you're traveling with guitars, drums, things like that. And I I think, David, what, it's seventy percent of the airport there? Yeah. I mean, it I mean, Southwest is a big part of BNA. Right? And, you know, for me, a guy who's really been traveling for fifteen years, out of Nashville. And, I mean, I would say over the last fifteen years, I've flown Southwest probably four hundred plus times. You know, and I've done it from the touring side. You know, I came from you know, I I was an audio engineer touring with artists. And it I mean, that was a big part. That's a big part of why, you know, the musician side or the music industry use Southwest. But, I mean, honestly, Jeff, I couldn't agree more. You know, you look at where Southwest stands and what truly made them different. I kinda liken them to what T Mobile was. They were kind of the uncarrier carrier. Right? They were different than everybody else. They didn't wanna do what all these legacy carriers were doing. And, yeah, the the you know, from being able to change your flight, just paying the difference, you know, that that that was a big one. The checked bags are huge. And, you know, it's, you know, for families, I mean, that's a I mean, it's a big deal. I just I look at it, and and those are the things that make you truly different. Now you're just everybody else. I might as I might as well as a business traveler who who travels now up to seventy five percent of the time, I I would always choose Southwest first. Right? And I would maybe look, but now, yeah, I am going to look and most likely probably not fly Southwest. Yeah. I think to David's point, I mean, let's be real. People aren't flying southwest because it's this luxury of the sky. I think they they fly southwest because it felt like a brand that was on their side. They, like, they weren't trying to nickel and dime you for seats or bags. There was no hidden fees. So there wasn't I mean, if you look at that email that came out yesterday, they they gave you these this whole chart. They included a chart in an email, which is like I was talking to some marketing folks here. It was like, woah. Like, who, you know, who does that? And now you you have all of these different pricing packages to to look at and what to choose. To to David's point, if I'm gonna have to, you know, pay for a change fee if I want to. And I just feel like they're throwing it all away saying, you know, we're now not all in this together, and we're back to this corporate kinda kinda corporate style that we're used to. So Yeah. One of the most mind boggling things to me too about it all is literally less than a year ago, the CEO comes out and says, don't worry. Check bags are going nowhere. Well, it's like, okay. So you just lied to your faithful fan base. Right? And that's what it is. You're right. Southwest, you know, their flight attendants were approachable. Their gate agents are approachable. They aren't like the stuffy other legacy carriers that have kinda taken some of that initial air travel, like, where everybody used to dress up to get on a plane no matter where they were going. Right? And, I mean, that is so much of what makes Southwest Southwest. Well, you're you're right. And and it's it's sort of a I don't know. It's almost a microcosm of sort of the post COVID world. Right? And and some of it is good. Right? Because, hey, some of the the efficiencies that we were able to achieve out of COVID have been incredible from a business standpoint. We see that a lot in our industry where things really hit. We've seen a lot of innovation. You've seen a lot of investment in in, you know, new tools, whether it's cloud, AI, you know, even Southwest going to to places like Expedia, I think, are a really nice, example of that as well. But the the the interesting thing is that they've so hyper focused on that that they've almost ignored really the reason that a the lot of folks buy it. It reminds me a lot of of sort of the the technology technology industry, as well, Jeff, you know, because for a long time you know? And, David, you see this as well. Yamaha, for a long time, brand equity was everything. Right? Because there you couldn't get on the Internet. You couldn't buy everything on Amazon. And, obviously, we've seen sort of a a commoditization of sorts of that because, hey. Now if I need an HDMI cable, I can I don't have to go to Best Buy? I can have someone bring it to have someone bring it to me in an hour. But we're reverting back to this world where brand equity and customer loyalty is becoming more important than ever because now that's the differentiator. Right? Why you know, Jeff, you when you look at Southwest kind of abandoning sort of its its brand loyalty side of things, why is that sort of mindset also something that is is a killer in our world too? Yeah. I think it's it it comes down to really, blurring your your brand identity is, like, what I like to call it is. So, we we I think Southwest is trying to still if you if you kinda break down that email and what they're trying to do, it's like a listers still have all of these benefits, right, but at the a list level. And so I think I I think it comes down to your your you're really blurring it, which is a big no no, I think, in, from a marketing perspective. You know, it makes the it makes your customer ask this question, which I think we we all are asking is, why should I stay? And if the answer is because we're still kind of cheap, I mean, that's not that's not enough. I I think every brand needs crystal clear clarity when it comes to, you know, what what sets you apart. And that gives you the equity to be who you are. It gives customers to trust. I I think this type of crystal clear positioning is is so critical. And then when it comes to Southwest, and this is the kind of case study we're talking about, but you can apply this across all industries, you know, hardware, software, SAS, UCaaS, CCaaS, CX, all the acronyms. Right? But, you know, let for for the purposes of this conversation, if I'm asking Southwest, what are you? Are you a budget airline? Then act like it. Are you a customer first airline? Then prove it. You know, if you're if you're just trying to blend in like everyone else, because, you know, this is beneficial to you, all equity is lost with the customer. And so I think when a brand loses focus, it starts making decisions based on what the competition is doing outside of what has made them successful in the first place. Well, it's a million times harder to gain that trust than it is to lose it. You know, it it's interesting too, David. I mean, obviously, getting the chance to work at Yamaha, really one of the most trusted brands across probably every single industry that you could think of from, you know, marine to, you know, motocross all the way to to the pro AV and music side of things. It's really it's really difficult to build that reputation. You know, but I wanna ask. I mean, for you guys, obviously, it's one of the drivers of revenue. Right? Folks trust the brand. Folks really embrace the idea that the products that they're gonna get from you not only work but are high quality. Why is that so important for you? Yeah. You know, it's it's funny. I mean, you're working for a company like Yamaha. It's funny. I often get, you know, the jokes. It's like, you know, you know, I've been, you know, I've I've I've found my brand new boat, but, you know, I've been looking for a piano. And it's like, you'll never believe it, but I've got you. Right? Yeah. I mean, Yamaha does look heavily at its brand health. Right? And and the value that the brand brings to the overarching, you know, thing, which is us obviously, you know, selling product. You know, Yamaha is known for quality. We're known for making, you know, you know, really great product that, you know, we pump a lot of dollars into r and d to be at the forefront of, you know, technology and, you know, put great product kinda into the market. But, you know, you can easily devalue that by one misstep, And I think that's what's happening here. And not only one misstep, but softness has made multiple missteps. I mean, you even look at the devaluation of their points earnings that they're, you know, doing, going from six to two, devaluing now, basically I mean, credit card holders to nothing. You know, yeah, cool. Credit card holders get free bags. I have the credit card. Right? But, you know, from from a personal standpoint, but I still have to pay for the bag and they're gonna reimburse me. Cool. So I spend money for you to give it back and, you know, for them to have a balance sheet that maybe looks healthier to a bunch of investors, and I think that's what they're playing to at this point. But, yeah, brand health is so important, and you can make one misstep and completely derail it. And and, personally, just all of the different things you've seen happen in less than a year, basically, because I think it was July time frame when they made that first announcement about going to the assigned seating. And I know not the entire plane will be assigned seating, but you're starting to blur the lines and blend in to be everybody else. And I don't think Southwest knows who they wanna be anymore. Do they want to have Are they doing the assigned seating and comfort seating and things like that to, appeal to more business style travelers? Okay. Fine. But I don't know if that's necessarily the right call because I can get that another Airlines. Right? Obviously, I've chosen Southwest personally for, hey. I can get anywhere I want direct because I live in a big market for, you know, you know, Southwest, so maybe I'm the exception, not the rule there. But, yeah, I didn't have to worry about bags. You know, I've got points galore. I'm worried now when you look at everything that they've started to take away and change. What's next in the chopping block? I'm calling it its companion pass. It's gonna be companion pass for sure. What and it's crazy because I I think, you know, the response is sort of one thing. Right? Everybody's upset. Naturally, hey. There's there's a transitional period. Right? But what they've done and this is really where that crossover happens for me. What they've done is they've isolated individual superfan groups. Right? Superfan groups, community members, and and in our industry, in the b to b side of things, it's channel partners, vendors, end users. They fully just respectfully kinda thrown the middle finger to them. It's it's challenging because whether it's the musicians, right, who are are are purists for Southwest or families like myself who love it because you could travel with, you know, strollers and you could travel with car seats and baggage. You don't have to worry about all that stuff. But it it's interesting because they've neglected their community as part of it too. And, Jeff, you've gotten a chance to see even in the world of of sort of the AV side, both, in the Logitech days and RingCentral beyond, that the lifeblood of our of our businesses are those communities. Talk a little bit about that and and talk about sort of, you know, that perspective of things. Yeah. I think you're hitting the nail on the head of of I don't wanna say cult like, but Southwest people love their Southwest. It is this community of people, and I'm a part of it. Right? And I feel like they they set themselves up for for an awkward transition, if you will. I think the best example that I can tie this to is Peloton. So Peloton put this huge cult following, then all of a sudden, they made it too expensive and too exclusive for their own good. And it was it was a bomb. And I think similar similarly, Southwest has made, that mistake. And, look, I I get it. Airline business is brutal. Costs are rising. Investors are breathing down your necks. But I think here's what Southwest could have done with that community in mind. I I think they tried to attempt this with that chart, but introduced some type of tiered benefits. So instead of just axing free bags, what would it look like to create this loyalty based system? And I think that's what they're trying to say is if you're an A list member, but that doesn't necessarily work when I'm a family of four and my kids don't fly that often. Right? So how could they have introduced some type of incentive where black bags still could fly free with, like, a like, a BOGO deal, buy one get one free, things that would benefit this, their type of audience and community that was flying. I think they could have really done a great job of reframing the message to that type of community. Again, looking at their customers and who who these people are. I had, someone comment on my LinkedIn post who's a traveling mom with three kids. What does this look like now for her kids who have to pay for those bags? Right? It becomes really expensive and something, that she was able to do that was a huge advantage for her with flying with her children now becomes more burdensome. Right? So it would they could have done a job about shifting the narrative. Right? When you're a community based, brand that has a huge following that love you for who you are, speak to your community, talk to them, get on their level. And I think the last point here when you when you have a following like this is you wanna add value and not take it away. So, instead of just giving, that type of announcement where it felt like everything was being stripped, what could've what could what type of narrative could've been included, like faster boarding times or because of this, this is the result in which you will benefit from. So, yeah, I think I think understanding this is all comes back down to true core PMM work is buyer personas, who are you talking to, how is this gonna resonate with your audience. And, yeah, I think I think, when it comes to the type of brands we're used to that have great following, like like Yamaha too. I know a ton of, like, folks who are all in on Yamaha. I'm sure there's a certain approach where you value the type of narrative that is a, community based speaking to probably your top individuals. I I think you can't just throw that out the window when you start on, you know, changing things for for what's gonna make, you know, more dollars to to David's point, if you will. Right? You know, David, you do get to live on the revenue side of the business. Right? And and a lot of these things pop up, whether it's sunsetting products, whether it's saying, hey. We're transitioning this benefit for this benefit. There there is some natural transition that folks are you are used to. I wanna ask because you get to live on the sales and revenue side of the business. What sorts of of transitions maybe are more normal and and what transitions maybe that Southwest has done and and, you know, even folks in the industry? What are some of those transitions where it becomes a point of, hey. You're you're not you're not shedding, you know, dollars and overhead expenses. You're shedding clients, maybe on purpose in some cases. Right? But talk about the importance of, hey. There's some natural change that has to happen from a revenue standpoint, but where's that line? Yeah. I mean, you know, look. At the end of the day, being in sales and, I mean, I've been on the marketing side, so I understand both. You know? I I think I fully understand the true customer journey, how somebody becomes a brand believer, and then they end up buying buying and and kind of all the things that are tied in that. I mean, the sales process is is obviously a little tricky. I mean, for for me and, I mean, something that, you know, you know, Yamaha stands firmly in, in place on is, you know, integrity and trust. Right? I mean, with integrity, you build trust and you build believers. Right? You know, you know, that that is a huge part of that. I mean, people are buying you just as much as they are a brand. So, I I just it's like I don't know if any of you or either of you have seen or heard of the it's the how I built this podcast with Herb Kelleher, right, the original founder of, you know, Southwest. I mean, it's a it's a fascinating interview. And just understand I mean, one of the biggest things that Herb called out in that podcast and one of the things that always stuck with me is, like, you know, be trustworthy. I mean, that was one of the things he tried to cultivate every day, and this is a complete deviation from that. Right? You are doing nothing but stripping the brand of I guess, stripping away all the things that people have always loved about Southwest. I mean, that'd be like Yamaha saying, we're no longer making music, like or or providing things to help you make music. People would be like, wait. What? That that that makes no sense. So, Dave David, I've gotta play a little bit of devil's advocate here. Right? Because in theory, that's all good. Right? And but at some point, there's gotta be attributable rep attributable revenue to that community side of things. Right? And and the attribution piece, especially in twenty twenty five, can get a little dicey. Right? Because, you know, you look at it marketing, sort of the standard is eleven different touch points across seven different channels. You you know, you can't always say that this one marketing social post that I put out did this or, hey, this community initiative that I did, you know, resulted in this. How do you take that community piece and start to find ways to attribute that direct revenue to it? Because I I I don't think Southwest. I'm a a have a hard problem doing that. But how do you sort of as a a a manufacturer kinda find that balance? I don't know. I mean, I don't know if this really answers the question, but the first thing that comes to mind for me is, I mean, you are a sum of all your parts. Right? I mean, you have to be good at all of the things to truly be a differentiating brand, right, and be able to sell your product confidently. You know, and for me, I mean, that that obviously starts in sales. You know? And I think the quality relationship and this is something Ben, you and I have always talked about between marketing and sales and making sure you're in alignment on those two things. Because you can have sales guys out there pushing, pushing, pushing. But if you're not in alignment with what the, you know, brand is trying to accomplish and what you're trying to do there and, you know, the logistical side of the company that people often forget. Yes. It is about a revenue number. Right? I mean, you know, look. They are, you know, or, they are constantly asking for more. Every company is going to ask for that, especially when they're publicly traded just like Southwest is, just like Yamaha is in Japan. Right? But you you have to look at the whole picture, and it's it's it's a sum of all the parts. And they you know, you are only you are only as good as the weakest one. Unfortunately, the I think the loudest voice at the table for Southwest is their marketing arm. Right? Their social reach is huge. They're massive I I don't wanna call it a fanboy, fan type brand, but they are. They they're not Apple. But of the airlines, I would say they're at the top of that style. Right? Well, it it's it's interesting too. And, you know, you sort of talk about the sum of all parts and and, you know, it's been cool to see how, you know, brands like Southwest and, you know, you mentioned T Mobile earlier have influenced the world, obviously, not only of just even b two c, but b two b as well. And, Jeff, I wanna ask, I guarantee you there's folks who's who are watching this right now say, hey. Southwest bummer crazy, and then we'll literally go do the same thing, in five minutes to their to their, you know, reseller community, not even making that attribution. What are the takeaways that that b two b can can pull from this? Right? What are some of the things where, you know, that marketer who's pissed off about, you know, Southwest changing their baggage flights, who doesn't who doesn't see the cognitive dissonance that they're doing the same thing same thing to their community? What are the takeaways that they could pull from this? Yeah. That's really good. It's a really good question. I think I think it's just thinking on three things. We're we're all I think as a marketer, we're going to make these kinds of mistakes thinking we have every best intention. I'm sure Southwest didn't just drop an email or whoever sent this out didn't think, okay. Tomorrow, I'm just gonna make this announcement. I'm sure there were, I mean, really great professionals in their space, very well thought out from investors to, product people to a pricing team to legal to marketers all in a room saying, hey. This is our change. So, this is this is no, you know, I I now I'm now I'm having remorse coming off so strong on Southwest, but, you know, I I think that's the difficult part is you have all of these different, minds coming into a room. And so I think the biggest advice and the takeaway I can give is don't forget about the the community. Right? At the heart of that meeting should have been, okay, at the end of the day, we've we've kinda got through all of these different walls of different stakeholders that appease everyone. Now let's re review it from our customer's eyes. How are they gonna perceive and digest this information? And and I'm not saying that wasn't done, but if at the end of the day that's still missing the mark, you have to reframe the message and go back into that war room. I think, with that being said, the takeaway too is, okay. Well, if this does happen and I and I get the type of response that I that Southwest is probably getting from their customers is, how do I fix it? You mentioned it earlier. I think you have to rebuild that trust, which is really hard to do after the damage is done, but build the trust. Come back and respond. Overcommunicate the why immediately. Like, if there is no push on, you know, the how this is gonna be, over communicate the why. You know, sell that story of why you made these decisions in the first place, and then reposition smartly. I think in in the framework that I use, it's always evaluating post launch. So in this post launch for Southwest, we're reevaluating and, yeah, they gotta make a hard pivot to reposition this narrative to to win back that community. So I think those are some some real takeaways because, yes, it it happens in every industry. And, yes, I'm gonna make the mistake, and there are folks out there that are gonna go and do the same thing tomorrow without without even realizing it. So Yeah. Well, you know, what's interesting is in a post COVID world, we've realized the power of community. Right? Whether for some of us, it's at our our houses of worship or our, you know, community groups, you know, or or hobby groups and things like that. You know? And, David, it's been cool to see in our industry too that was very, very product central for a long, long time and very technologically driven and speeds and feeds and things like that, where brands have said, hey. You know what? It's important for us to have a meaningful relationship with our community even just outside of resellers. Right? It's it's easy to to point to the resellers. But talk about some of the way or maybe even some of the things that that folks like, you know, you know, even Yamaha can pull from this and say, hey. This shows us the power of of our community, and it shows us why we need to continue to keep our community engaged. Yeah. I mean, you know, Yamaha just just launched a brand new, you know, basically, brand promise to be heard. Right? I mean, you know, as a musician, that's a, you know, a big thing. You know? But the most musicians just want their their art to be heard. And, I mean, I think that that speaks true to anybody, though. Right? I mean, no one likes to kinda be buried at well. Maybe some people do, but, you know, most people want to be heard or or have something that is worth hearing. And Yamaha does try to get really close to the customer. Right? I mean, yeah, obviously, you know, our our channel partners and reseller network are really important to that. But, you know, we have to have we have to have strong messaging internally for us, but then also we have to make sure that that's being lived and breathed by our channel partners. But we also try to get really close to the end users. Right? We do things like NAM. We go to, you know, TwitchCon, these types of shows where the end user is the most important part of this. Right? Because at the end of the day, they're who's going to drive the ask for our product. It's that simple. You know? You know, you want your customers going and asking, hey. I want this Yamaha product. Why is it not on your shelf? Or, hey. I want this mixer, right, in a b to b world. You know, this is what I want. I need you to help me figure out how to make it work for my scenario. Right? And, but, I mean, community is driven at its core. It it takes everybody. But at the end of the day, the business needs to understand that you're you're only as strong as the community you're building around the product or brand or whatever you're trying to push out there. Right? And and I think that's what truly differentiates companies that succeed long term and falter, in the short term. Yeah. I I agree a hundred percent, David. I I feel like in my experience, you know, customers who engage in community actually convert faster than those who don't. You know, we saw things where, we we get higher retention. So, actually, customers who are engaging in in these types of communities, that sounds like what you're describing, they they actually are proven to stay longer and expand their their their contracts. So, they're they're they're coming to us. Like, okay. Contract is coming. You know? We don't we don't have to do that reach out just because of the type of community involvement had. They they become brand loyalists. And so then you were asking earlier, like, what are those, like, returns on investment for for community? I mean, there are things that can be measured, with pure data, but also you gotta dive a little deeper and ask the type of questions. Look at these types of customers. Do some cross evaluation on, you know, customer name and finding them in the communities and look at their, you know, how they converted, how long they've been a customer, even even the the cost of acquisition. Right? Some of these could have came in from a link off of LinkedIn. Like, that's that's a super low acquisition cost. So I think, community is huge, man. I have nothing but great things to say about it, and I think this generation that's coming behind us, we're seeing more of this, like, like, these Gen Zers who are becoming these corporate influencers creating community based, you know, circles, amongst them from an employee to a customer. I think this is the the future of marketing. And so such a great great conversation. And you're bringing up points that are just hitting hitting hitting some good sparks in me. And so David brought was talking to me, and I was, like, getting fired up over here. It it's interesting because the world of b to c and b to b have never been closer from a marketing standpoint. You know? You you you look at, you know, what happened in b to c and the Taylor Swifts of the world and the Dallas Cowboys of the world who say, hey. Our fans are our best marketers. Let's empower them and give them all the tools they need. Historically, in b to b, it's been a little bit different, but, that idea has shifted dramatically, which is why it's so important for us to have conversations like this about those brands and then what we could pull from. I'll tell you, gentlemen, I'll give you a last question. If there was one thing I'm a start with you, David. If there was one thing that you would say to Southwest maybe that they could help do, to take a first step to remediate the situation with folks like us, what would it be? I'm putting you on the spot. I didn't we didn't prep this, but I gotta ask. Yeah. Remember how you got here. I mean, that is a big part of it. Obviously, you can't sit, sit in the past forever. But remember how you got here. Remember remember why you do business. You know, customers are important and you don't have a business without them. They're not always right. Not always, but you have to take their thoughts into consideration. Because without them, you'd you're gonna have a tough road to, or I guess a tough ladder to climb. But Jeff, same question to you. We'll wrap it up. Yeah. I, I'm I'm a hundred percent with David on that. I I'm a I'm an integrity person, so I think Southwest should just publicly acknowledge the frustration, come out and and say that they're working towards being the brand that we all love and they're you know, these these changes are inevitable, but talk about things that, you know, could could help rebuild the trust, and I think honesty is is first. I don't know. I I would say for Southwest to go look at okay. You know, we're gonna have to charge for bags. There's an expense there, but what what could be some other things that can give away that can kind of offset? Is it free Wi Fi? Is it, you know, discounted fares for for children? You know, giving some incentive to earn earn that dollar, but also give back that dollar to the customer. Well, look. If Southwest is listening, they're about five blocks down the street. I don't know. Probably more five. They're they're two or three miles away, but, you know, you talked about where where Herb Kelleher, came up with the idea for Southwest. That's actually about five blocks up the street from us. So very, large attachment with us, here in Dallas as well. You guys obviously not Dallas based, but get to see the impact of how great Texas is, indirectly. But I'll tell you what, gentlemen, it's, it's always fantastic to have you on the show. I appreciate you sharing your insights. We gotta have you back on soon. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Ben. Appreciate it, Ben. And thank you all for, tuning in. Be sure to like and subscribe. Check us out next time on the show.