Voice of a Customer: A Marketing Strategy Deep Dive with David Loomis

I had to go back, and it's a, it's a great, it's, that's a great story. When I got involved in the innovation space at my holding company, that was just literally all me working against forces of my own company, actually, which was fascinating. It was definitely an ass forgiveness instead of permission situation. Yeah. And that was a that was a really good one. And then, you know, most recently you know, I could talk about, either the, you know, my book coming together, and I've got another book that I'm just starting on. But but also even just very recently, my, you know, refocus on voice of customer that's, like, paid off so amazingly, you know, like, market are taking his own advice type thing. Do you know what I mean? Yes. You know, I I was guilty of trying to be a lot of things. That I probably, you know I mean, I can do a lot of things, but that doesn't and so can a lot of companies. Yeah. That doesn't mean you should. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, it was interesting. Right? I was talking to a good friend and colleague yesterday, and he it'd probably been a couple months since we talked, but at at one point, we were really tight. And so it was just kinda like picking things up, but he's got his own firm, and they were just They're going like gangbusters, but he was talking about the same thing. Like, when they started out and I I think all all businesses when they when they're they go through these phases. Right? Like, when you're starting out, you're in survival mode, and you're like, I'll take whatever calls. Right? But they they they quickly were able to get enough in the door that they were like, wait a minute. We're Yes. We can do a lot, but we're great in these particular lanes. And they just they just started giving work away that wasn't in those lanes. And Yeah. I did that this week. I I I turned some work down. That I previously would have, you know, jumped at, not even out of desperation, just out of, you know, hey, I I could I could figure that out. I can try and do that. But why should I? Because it's opportunity cost. Yeah. It's taking away from time that I could be spent spending doing something that I'm even better at and that's more focused. Yeah. There's a There's a a ministry that's out there that's called Free Burma Rangers, which is like really edgy group. They get if you're familiar with, like, doctors without borders, they doctors without borders goes into they go, within one mile of rifle fire, right, to help people, right, that are to minister to people that are caught in war zones and stuff like that. Right? Okay. Well, this group, Free Bummer Rangers, covers that gap, that one mile gap. They got they they are you serious? They get special forces folks to because they're they're like, wait. There's there's people that are stuck. Like, they've got a video where they're in Mosel, right, when somebody's just laying waste. I mean, literally, it's a kill zone, and they're just killing people. Right? And this group goes in and they lay down covering fire and they get the people out. Which is is crazy. But the guy that that founded it, Dave Yubanks is his name. He's got this quote towards the end of the video where he's like like, you know, well, what is it, you know, that you're, you know, most concerned about and he said I'm most concerned about doing good things that aren't great things aligned with our mission. Right? There's so there's so many good things we can do. And Vart, they're good, but they're not aligned with our mission. Right? Yeah. It's it's a distraction. That's one of the hardest things for a person to do and a company to do. Yeah. I mean, you have to know you have to actually know what that mission is to make those decisions too. Yeah. So so this this ties into strategy as well, the whole Alice in Wonderland, you know, if you don't know where you're going, any road get you there type thing. Yeah. There's a great line. I don't know if you remember the movie, but I think it was back from the eighties or the nineties. It was called Quigly Down under. Right? It was just never heard of it. It was a Tom Sallick Western movie about -- Oh, that sounds good. -- about a cowboy in Australia. Right? But, anyway, he's got they're stuck and they're lost. And he's with this woman, and she's like, Aren't you concerned we're gonna be late? He's like, you don't know where you're going. You're not gonna be wrong when you get there, you know. Yeah. And you and you won't be late either because you didn't have a time schedule, really. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's interesting. I think a lot of people probably don't know how to find their bearings and what they're what they're good at. You know, the one I I most recently, I think I might have told you about how I I listed every project that I'd done in the last, like, ten or fifteen years, you know, on a spreadsheet. And then I categorized them all in turn I rated them all in terms of how good I felt I was at doing it, how passionate I was about doing it, and did it make me money? So those are actually the three categories from the hedgehog and good to great. Rephrased. Which is, you know, does it, am I best at it, am I passionate about it and does it drive my economic engine? And, you know, what was so, just eye opening for me is that once I did this rating and I broke it into a couple buckets and I color coded it, like, the top bucket that was all green, every single one of those was about conducting voice of customer interview. Really? Every single one of them. I mean, literally every one of them. And all the things that were sort of in the middle were a mix And but there were and there were other factors involved too because I kind of like, if there was a low score or a high score, I tried to like sort of suss out for myself, well, what made that project so great? Yeah. And or what made that project fail or not be successful or I didn't like doing it. And sometimes it was, a situation, where, you know, the company was maybe too small and didn't understand what I was doing. No fault of their own, but fault of me forgetting myself in that situation probably. So, like, like, larger companies seem to come out on top because I have some, you know, I have some very good experience, and I know how to navigate those companies and and help people that are in those companies navigate through them because it's, you know, it's it's a it's a maze. It is, and it's a skill. Right? It's it's one of those things that My father was a a very successful small business entrepreneur. Right? And and I remember him saying, oh, the only difference is the zero. And I was like and then as I got into, large corporations and Fortuneton corporations and stuff like that, I realized, no. No. It's not. It's it's a totally different they're they're different skill sets. It's different. Every everything's different. And it's, like, now I work with both I I work with companies across that spectrum, but I've had to learn when I'm working with startups and small businesses, it's it's much more about that entrepreneurial get it done capability. Right? And hundred hundred percent. When you're working with these larger corporations, it's it is about get it done. It's also about alignment and bringing the team with you, and you've gotta get you've gotta get all the opinions and the the people Right? You've gotta you've gotta manage and influence a group. Oh, yeah. So I have a client right now that I brought on, a couple of I I'd worked for them maybe five years ago on a on a big project for six months or so, and I I've just reengaged with them. So a whole new group of people that are that are involved on their end. And we're it's an in big industrial man equipment manufacturer, multi billion dollar company with its own parent company that's even many more billions. And I'm I I mean, this is gonna be a this is a heavy lift because they have not had end user segmentation before, by industry for for their, you know, they've sort of been like, hey, you'll love this equipment. It does the job, whatever your job is. Yeah. But but we're dividing it into segments. And so, this doesn't involve voice of customer because basically my first stage is setting up the the the segments. So understanding, you know, what those could be and kind of socializing those and getting them set up so that I can interview into those segments to understand macro trends, pain points, and that sort of thing. So then we can create marketing materials that reflect that and resonate more with them and target them and that sort of thing. Well, I mean, I've been a couple months into it, and I realized I I made this I had to make a list. I had to make my own list again in Excel. I love Excel. I made this list. I've spoke I've briefed forty people internally in this company. On the project. Part of those conversations were getting those a little bit of input on the segmentation but most of it was me just telling them, hey, I'm working on this. Just wanted to let you know And here's what the segmentation is starting to look like, and here's our end game and all that just so you understand where we're going with this. Because we're gonna ask them eventually for, you know, contacts and end user intros or rental company intros and that sort of thing. So it's just funny because I'm just like, oh my god. I think I've just spent the last two months getting alignment. That's crazy. Right? And that that is a that's a skill, and it's it's absolutely essential. There was a a guest I had on earlier, and they had just talked about the importance of that. Right? They're they lead a large mark marketing organization. And they said one of the number one things is is getting alignment with their peers outside of the function around things, right, and then getting alignment with their team. In order to drive that action because they've gotta produce results. Right? And it's like, okay. I'm judged on my results. But even if I've got the best results, if people don't and I think you talked about this in one of your podcasts on choreographing the customer experience. Right? Yes. Which yes. The reality of it is is we all have customers, whether we're in a large corporation or we're in a small business and deal directly with customers internally or externally. And you've gotta manage their expectations. Right? And you've gotta meet them on that that journey that they're going through. And so if you've got this project and it's touching, you know, forty or eighty or a hundred people, You've gotta make sure all of those people have a good experience with that. Right? Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. So it it does there's there's differences between, you know, big companies, small companies, who the who the leader is and what their vision is. So this is all, you know, sort of circling back to the having a vision. I also I mean, you've gotta have a vision of what you're really good at in your you know, sort of abilities, I would say, but you also have to know what drives you and really, like, what is your purpose? Why are you here? No. And I don't I think You know, a lot of that comes to people a little bit later in their careers. Yeah. But I think it can come to people earlier in their careers if they if they think about it, I heard this term, in in a, some videos that I've been watching and books that I've been reading this term soul print. You know, like, we all have a fingerprint. Yeah. But but but we probably all have a soul print, which is something that makes us unique that really drives us that that is more purpose oriented about, like, what What do we really wanna accomplish here? Which is bigger than just what's your job. You know? But it does involve your job because Gosh. That's how we spend a lot of our lives. Is is what do we do with our hands and our brain and our time and All that. Right. Exactly right. Now you nailed it. Then one of the things, you know, when we were getting on this call, you were talking about, you said early in your career when how you landed your first your first gig, right, that it it was it looks like a smashing success on paper. Right? But, but it was a little bit of an interesting road, right, to get there. Can you walk me through that? Oh, Yeah, absolutely. And this is like, I mean, I've got a bunch of stories like this, but it was like, it was so instructive to me. And I, I've I've never really forgotten about it or forgotten about sort of the mark that it left on me because, you know, we're never there there's rocky roads everywhere. I mean, that's just that's just life. And if we think that it's gonna be smooth, then we're we're in for a big surprise. But there's also a never give up aspect because I feel like, you know, if we have a vision, that doesn't mean that that's gonna happen, like, at the snap of a finger just because you came out with your vision. You you've gotta work at that too. So so when I was in, Colin, I went to Northwestern, university in Chicago, and we had at the time a great college, a great job placement office at the at the university. So there were companies coming in and out. I mean, if you really took ball and met with these people and took advantage of this. Yeah. You you you were in good shape because, you I was interviewing with all sorts of, you know, great companies, but they were they were all over the place. I was an econ and Poly Sign major. I didn't know, you know, whether I want, you know, it's gonna be a lawyer or go into politics or there were all sorts of options. We're we're just going to, you know, quote, unquote, business, which I didn't really understand at the time. I did take an advertising class in the Madill School of Journalism, my senior year. And I'm like, wow, people can do this for a living. Like, this is like an interesting, like, connection between right and left brain. Yeah. For me, it was for me, it was, not that I was gonna go into the creative side of things. Although that did interest me, and I and I kind of have done a little bit of that over the years. But, you know, I'm just like, okay. This is this is something I can really get my my head around, and I I'd like to give this a shot. So as I learn more, I realize that this job at Leo Burnett advertising in Chicago was, like, literally the job. They're, like, the, like, the the top students, you know, in my graduating class at Northwestern and and a few other schools would vie for, you know, there would be hundreds and hundreds of people applying for, like, three jobs. You know, the and you get into this quote unquote class of people that are starting at a certain time, you know, at Leo Burnett. And at the time, it was the third largest ad agency in the world. You know, the other ones were based in New York City. And this was in Chicago and I wanted to stay in Chicago. So I'm like, hey, this is this is Leo. So I I actually, you know, there were on campus interviews, there were multiple rounds. And then if you were lucky, you got through all of those and you got invited to go there for the day. Okay. Which was all day of interviews going from one person to one person to the next person to the next person. And I am like, you know, a few other people at in my graduating class, you know, got they made it to that to that day. And I was, I was very naive at the time I I was so committed to this job, and I'm just like, hey, I've made it this far. I'm gonna, you know, it's gonna be very clear to anybody that I talk to. How much I really, really want this job. Right? Yes. So that's how I approached it, basically. It probably came across as a little bit, desperate. Or or just, you know, I may be overly enthusiastic if I if I had to say it. Right? But, I I I I went through this day of interviews. And, you know, I I thought it went okay. I didn't think it necessarily went great. I got asked a lot of the same questions over and over again by the same, you know, different people. And I, you know, So, you know, but I was hopeful and, and I wasn't doing a whole lot else to get another job. Right. So it was like, I was putting all my eggs in one basket. And they were very slow and in letting me know. I remember my dad calling me up and asking me, you know, how's your job search going? Well, I'm not doing too much this week. I'm waiting to hear It's like, you better get on it. And I anyway, held out all my hopes, and then I got this call that was just devastating. Deva stating. You didn't make it. And I'm just like, wait, I didn't make it. What? I mean, I I, you know, it was like sort of back to square one. I just I just, it was it was a a very, very rough time. Other things that were going on at the time. And this is, you know, this is instructive too, and I've never really brought this up. But, my my roommate's girlfriend who was basically our, you know, our roommate too. Ended up taking her own life. Yeah. Like three weeks before our college graduation. So I was I was and my own girlfriend broke up with me. Around that same time. So I was like, okay. You know, here I am hanging out here with this grief. And then I had, you know, I I didn't get this job. Yeah. And I'm just like, what the heck? What am I gonna do? So I I went with a friend of mine and spent a little bit of time on Cape Cod over the summer. And, kinda got my head together. And I actually went to New York City, over the summer and and got some job interviews with with other ad agencies. And even just doing that, it it that that would that would that was just a great exercise because it got me, you know, back up on the horse. And it got me exposed to other it wasn't just like one office that I'd been to or people that I'd talked to. I mean, I've been interviewing in New York City. Yep. You know, okay. That's something. Then I came back to Chicago, and I needed money. So I got a job at a men's clothing store called Markshale. And while I was waiting. And, and I also was interviewing all over Chicago and a whole bunch of other firms. I sent out hundreds of letters, all that kind of stuff, and networked, and all that, and I lined up a bunch of interviews. And now you know, were they my first choice? I don't know. No. But but but, hey. Yep. You know? I I I wanted to be in advertising. So I'm like, hey. I'm gonna do this. And, there was a great, there was a great sort of, synergy or coincidence, type situation that happened when I was waiting on somebody in the men's clothing store, you know, helping him find, like, a new year's outfit or something like that. And I, you know, struck up this conversation with him, and he He was like the top sales guy at w x r t, which is a a radio station in Chicago, my my favorite radio station. And, You know, he's like, oh, I know I know people at Leo Burnett. You know? And I'm like, interesting. So, you know, he was able to put a good word in in for me while I was trying to network back into the over net. Which was really interesting, you know. And I ended up, pivoting a little bit, so I went into the media department. Instead of the account management department. And I ended up going through a whole series of interviews and getting getting asked to come back for the day. So it was just like Get to do it again. You know, a few months later or, you know, after this terrible situation, And here I was again at chance two, second chance. You know? And I put that together for myself and I went in and my mindset was completely different. I said, you know what? I'm going in here, and I'm gonna tell them I wanna be an advertising, and I'm gonna be an advertising, and I'm interviewing all over the place. I'm interviewing in New York City. I'm interviewing all over Chicago. I'm interviewing here at Lee over Net. Yep. That's exactly what I did. I got the offer. That's great. And and, you know, they they, they said, oh, wow. You know, we gotta we gotta make sure we get this guy. Yeah. You know? And it was like, completely different. And, you know, I that changed everything for me, that job. Even though I was only there for a couple years, changed everything. I still have amazing friends from that time, and also just it just kicked off. My whole interest in in marketing and and, and and all that. So it but it you know, to me, it was just that lesson. I've got so many other examples of that now. That, hey. I mean, literally, if you don't if at first you don't succeed, try try again. Yes. There's a reason why that expression exists. Yeah. There was a book that came out, I don't know, maybe five. It may be ten years. Ten years ago now. It's the way the way time flies has to it was more than five anyway. Just about I mean, and I think it was called grit. Right? And it was it was just they they looked at all of these different people in in They all had different paths to success, but the one underlying characteristic was perseverance. They called it grit. Right? It's just that ability to, like like you said, right? See, I come from a really strong faith back like a Christian faith background, and and that's that's my belief system. And, as I look at that, right? When you were talking about this, It's like, hey, what what's your purpose? Right? If you've got that that north star, right, about what it is that you're you're trying to do, and and you just keep pushing through towards in that direction, recognizing that there's going to be pivots. Right? There's gonna be a lot of pivots along the way. And so in the same way that when you're you're climbing a mountain, right, you don't go straight up the mountain. Right? You you you you zigzag back and forth and you you use switchbacks and trails, and sometimes you go down a little bit in order to go further up. Right? And it's I love climbing mountains as a great metaphor for just overcoming things, right, and accomplishing accomplishing goals because it's not clean and it's not easy. Oh, it really isn't. It makes me think of of this one. So after after Chicago, I lived there for a while and worked in marketing. I went and got my MBA and worked in consulting a little bit. And I moved back to my hometown of Cleveland, Ohio where I worked at a holding company for a while. Actually, a long while, fifteen years. But the the, the leader of this, this holding company, I was sort of my boss's boss, but I worked extremely close, to that person. And and he actually is a, an incredible leader and mentor and, and friend. But I had a kind of a shocking interchange with him one time because there's a a program probably in most cities that you, you know, in your city too, like, a leadership program. This was called leadership, Cleveland, where, you know, like, people that are at senior level in organizations, you know, kind of get together as a quote unquote class -- Yeah. -- every year and do activities around the city and learn from each other and network in that sort of thing. So, somebody that I had been networking with, who was actually the in charge, your owner of one of the large banks in town, said, you know, he kept telling me he's like, Dave, you know, you've gotta be in this program. You're you're it's perfect for you. So you just he's like, go ask your, you know, your the leadership of your company to sponsor you. And I went into my this person's office. And I said, hey, you know, This leadership Cleveland program is coming up. The applications are coming in. Do you think, you know, that you could sponsor me? And he paused and he looked at me and he said, but Dave, I thought that program was for leaders. And and and and I'm just like, And and he's like he's like, it's just for CEOs. It's just for people who are at the the top top of their organizations. Right? And I said, well, maybe it started out that way, but it's not like that now. There's a lot of there. I wasn't obviously CEO, he was, you know. So, but I'm just like, wow. That's harsh. For leaders. So I didn't get it. I obviously didn't do it. Because, you know, you can actually technically pay your own way into it, but or you can do it without company sponsorship, but it it it doesn't your your chances are slim. Because there there's a high demand for the program. Well, fast forward to how many years later was that? It was probably, like, eight years later, nine years later. When I was working for a different company, sort of the top PR firm in town. And they actually came to me and said, hey, we wanna sponsor you for the leadership Cleveland program. And I'm like, Okay. And they said, we don't know if you'll get in. Usually, it takes a few years to, you know, apply and get in, get turned down and get in, whatever. But, you know, we'd like to have you do that. And that so I applied and and I actually got in. And I just remember savoring that year so much Just because I was like, you know what? Here I am. Here I am. It didn't happen on my time frame or the first try or whatever, but, you know, Here I am. And again, man, that was incredibly impactful on my life. And I have also amazing friends and contacts and so forth from that experience. Those program but if I didn't have that North Star -- Yeah. -- that sort of thought that, hey, I I just kinda knew this was in my future. Yeah. I don't know how I knew, but I just kinda knew. That's that's awesome. Right? And what I like, great, is that it's just sometimes no's aren't no's. They're not now's. Right? Absolutely. Right. There there's times when it's, you know, I want something and and, like, as I as I look back over the the course of my career, and things that have worked well and things that haven't and whatnot is, you know, he he's as I look back on that, I I recognize there's there have been a lot of not nows, right, and timing matters. And I think that that applies also with, like, new products a lot. Right? If you think about, like, the m p three player had been around for how long before the iPad. Right? Right. Or or what was that What was that personal PDA? This personal digital assistance? Yes. That that Apple that Apple came out with Yeah. That was too far ahead of its time, basically. That's right. You know, and it took the blackberry. To, you know, we're getting we're we're dating ourselves here, but it took it took the blackberry and then and then some other things after that. The palm pilot. Yep. And some other things that came along. But, yeah, yeah, timing is absolutely everything. Sometimes you're ahead of your your Well, it is gonna be interesting with, like, EV vehicles now. Right? And I know it was redundant saying EV vehicle but with with the EVs that are out there because the the infrastructures not not really there and it is specifically if you're not in a Tesla, right? It is I know a lot of people that you know, went and got, you know, EV trucks and things like that, and they they couldn't get rid of them fast enough. They're just like, it just doesn't work for what I I love the concept, but there's no, the infrastructure is not there, and I can't wait for the hours that it's going to take for this thing to charge. Yeah. I was just talking to somebody about this yesterday because, not only is this happening in the consumer world, it's happening in the b to b world. So I'm doing a project that where I had to, interview, service managers who manage huge fleets of vehicles. So, one of the segments is utility fleets. And these are, electric company, power company, water, you know, telephone, you know, all those kind of fleets that go out and you've seen all those trucks. They're the ones who that have the bucket trucks and, you know, guys are up on the lines and doing stuff like that. Trying to repair things or, you know, fix things. And, so I'm talking to this guy at Pacific Electric and, you know, he's telling me how, you know, California and their company have, you know, have just come out. To say how far they're going and what an incredibly aggressive time frame it is to convert their fleet from internal combustion engine to electric vehicles. And he's like he's like, well, you know, we've had a little bit of success putting battery packs in and using those instead of idling to to to do the power on, like, say, the, the bucket, you know, when when you're parked and and all that. He's like, but for the actual propulsion of the vehicle, he's like, they think that this is just a few years away. He's like, This is two or three decades away. He says, first of all, it doesn't have the power. Second of all, when it gets cold, it it's it loses his range. Third of all, there's nowhere to charge it. He says lines go down in the middle of nowhere in the mountains of California. I'm gonna take my that electric vehicle truck up there. And and then it's just gonna get stuck because I have nowhere. I have nowhere to charge it. Yes. Right? And it's And so how ironic is it that it's the actually the power company itself that's telling me that we're not gonna have electric vehicles in an industrial application. Right? It just oh, It's bad. Yeah. A truck roll. Oh my word. Right? It it's it's just not there from a dependability standpoint. I think, look, if if you live in, in a mature metroplex and there's a good grid and there's a good infrastructure and things like that. Okay. Right? But it's it's one of those things that And what what I'm actually curious about, right, because you're going from for internal combustion engines and whatnot, and we're totally rabbit trailing, but when you're when you're talking about like ice vehicles internal combustion engines and electric vehicles, you're going from what I call, you know, with the EVs, it's rare earth materials. Right? And they're called rare earth minerals and materials for a reason. They're rare. Right. So hey. Pick your poison. I mean, we're going from one challenge to another. Yes. Right? And it's like, hey, you know what? It's we we've got common materials here, low cost common materials that that run these things, and it's fairly dependable, fairly consistent in in whatnot. You know how long it's going to last and and whatnot to something that's rare and expensive. And and an inconsistent infrastructure. I'm not saying that it's not gonna get there because guess what? Electricity and the telephone and all of that other stuff went through the same through the same development. Right? But it's just it's a question of how long is it going to take to get there And also, do you really have the mineral base? I'm I'm curious because I I haven't done any research on this at all, but in in terms of, are there is there enough lithium in the world to convert? Right? And and It's a great question or or nickel. Nickel is another one that's in high demand for for various things that are fueling our, you know, technology economy. And you know, who knew that there was a lot of nickel in Ukraine, for example. I wonder why I wonder why people are fighting for that terror trust. Real, really. So yeah. So back But, you know, timing is important. And you can't your timing isn't always, you know, perfect, but that doesn't mean that you should shelf every everything that doesn't go your way first time around. Well, by the way, I think part of the reason we ended up on this trail. You were you were saying you were Poly sci econ major. I was a history major with Poly sci econ minors and absolutely geek out on this sort of stuff. Right? So Hello. Yeah. Me too. Anyway, Yeah. So, I mean, we could talk about that in another conversation. That sound that sounds that sounds great. That sounds good. Yeah. So as you'd think about it, like, If you could give a message, right, to your younger self or to somebody coming along now, Right? Say they're five, ten years into their career. I'm assuming perseverance, right, and grit would be one of those things but what would be a couple of other things that you would tell yourself? Well, the one that I and and and I've thought about this, quite a bit and I've I've been saying this when people ask this question is that I would tell myself that it's never too early to be a leader because I Just didn't recognize, like, my leadership abilities or or even try to develop them. I'm not sure that it I mean, maybe some were innate, but maybe some just came from trying and and learning how to do it. And a lot of it just comes from actually just being confident about whatever it is you're doing or saying or what have you. So that, you know, if if you're going there, you can get people to come with you. Yep. You know, that sort of thing. But, I mean, I I just questioned that for a long time. Maybe it's the structure of of of the way business works and, like, sort of job titles and seniority and all that, you know, sort of this militaristic structure of, you know, of layer upon layer upon layer and you think, oh, well, I'm down here. I can't be a leader because a leader is just all the way up there. Totally false. Yeah. Totally false. And I realized after a while, in that holding company, that I had more freedom than I thought. So I sort of got in a position where I'd paid my dues I was sort of a a a a trust trusted, you know, individual to do the job, the the job and jobs and roles that I was assigned. So I I had a little, I guess, epiphany where I just said, you know what? I'm really interested in in innovation and I don't think that we do and not we drive enough real innovation through our different subsidiaries. We had four subsidiaries at the time that were very unrelated coal mining forklift trucks, kitchen appliances, kitchen retail stores. It was really fascinating, kind of old fashioned holding company type thing. And, so the the the businesses didn't have a lot in common, but I thought, you know, innovation thinking is really in common. It doesn't really matter what business you're in. It it it's sort of a mindset and and and and potentially a process and some other things like that. And I started getting in interested in it, and I even pitched, you know, I think I pitched within the company. Hey, you know, I could take on this innovation role. No. No. We don't need that. In fact, we don't do anything intentionally, we don't do anything across our subsidiaries. They're just they just operate autonomously, so don't go in that, you know, sandbox. I'm like, oh, okay. Well, I read a book, called Open Innovation by Henry Chestbro at the time. He was at Harvard at the time, and, he ended up moving out to, Berkeley. And I'm like, you know what? I love this so much. I'm gonna try and find where he's speaking. And see if I can get approval to, like, go on this trip and go see him. And so I found him and it was, like, sort of an unrelated field to me. He he just happened to be the keynote speaker for, I don't know, some human resources, you know, sort of session, but I got approval to go and I went. And I introduced myself to him afterwards and was talking to him And I told him about the company and my role. My role was pretty unique at the time because I was an internal consultant, and I helped manage these four subsidiaries from, special projects standpoint, just revenue enhancement, it projects, branding, segmentation, that sort of thing, but also process improvement, all sorts of different things, whatever needed to do. And he's like, oh, I'm forming an innovation forum group. You know, do do you wanna join? And I'm like, yeah. How do I do that? And he says, well, you gotta make a ten thousand dollar, you know, quote, unquote donation to Berkeley. You know, that's what it is. But basically, that is the, you know, sort of annual fee to be part of this group. And I'm like, okay. That sounds great. So I go back and my boss was very my direct boss was very understanding of this. And somehow, she got this approved. Maybe without telling anybody, I'm not sure how it all came down, but she got got it approved. And I joined this group. And I went out to, you know, Berkeley and I'm sitting there And there's there's people from, like, Dell and Intel and, you know, g probably GE. I mean, I don't know, air products, folks that you know, probably through ISBN and some other organizations. So Yeah. It was absolutely fascinating. And unless I'd actually taken the ball, and and actually just done that myself? Yeah. Never never would have happened. So I got so energized by this group. That I did something very, very risky. I did tell my direct boss, but I don't she did not tell the CEO. And, I I actually went back and I organized an innovation an in person innovation forum That included representatives from all our subsidiaries. Yes. And I had that I had them fly into Richmond, Virginia. And I got guest speakers for it, and it was like a two day event with a dinner it cost a freaking fortune. And somehow, you know, it was a it was an ask forgiveness. You know, instead of permission situation. And that was, like, when I realized, you know what? I I actually can, you know, I can be a leader and I put all this material together for it. And then I showed it to Henry Chestburn. He's like, hey, can you present this to the forum group? Because this is amazing. And so here I am, you know, a year or two after having this epiphany or this great idea that, hey, I'm just gonna pursue this stuff. So not only did I pursue it. I learned enough about it. I organized this group in my, you know, multi billion dollar company. And then I pre was presenting at this industry, the the that this private forum group that was, like, the leading companies in the nation. And they're all like, wow. That's fantastic. Can we use that? You know, like, okay. I think I got this. Indnick. Why didn't I do this sooner? Yeah. Yeah. Indnick crazy, right, that, you know, that the old saying in cliche necessity is the mother of invention. Right? And a lot of times, to your point, or you went somewhere that you you went to this forum to learn about innovation, right, and then you ended up adopting and and doing something that nobody in that group had done, right, which was to disperse and and to share that information across across your company, right, and be able to start sowing seeds of innovation there in an in an early stage, right, when back when it wasn't as prevalent, right, and it wasn't as easy to kick start, especially in some stodgy old industrial companies. Right? Sometimes it's Exactly. Exactly. It's really tough to get that going, but I I love the fact. Right? That you're it because I I think back you know, along the same lines around my career. And there's there's things, all of a sudden, people are like, wait, you did what? And it's what as you're telling this story, right, it's you were like, hey, I need to share this. How do I do it? Well, this is the best way to share it. And you've gotta create some energy around it so you need good speakers that are gonna be there. It's not just you coming and saying, hey, I heard X in talking for a day and a half. Exactly. You gotta hear it from real experts Yeah. It was it was it was terrific. It was a lot of fun. And and then It was pretty dicey when the CEO did find out about it. He's just, like, You did what? And I showed him the final presentation for it after the fact and that kind of thing. And he's like, oh, this is interesting. I learned over time he warmed up to a lot of things, you know, over time. Yeah. So alright. I've got a quick question for you. As as we're we're getting close to the end. You've done you've said voice of customer is your passion you're calling and and and what you love. You've been on, I don't know, thousands probably of VOC interviews and and whatnot along the line. Do you have any crazy stories? Do you have anything where you were like, I wouldn't expect in that. Right? Iraising moments? That's a good one. Well, the without I mean, you gotta protect the innocent. Right? So Yeah. I always I always, find something surprising. I mean, I always that that is the beauty of doing voice of customer correctly is that you will hear things that you don't expect. One of them very early in my career, I I had to I had to go to Sydney Australia for Motorola, for their two way radio business. And I I had to do competitor research also, and I'm I'm not exactly proud of, like, sir, maybe I misrepresented myself a little bit or maybe just didn't tell the whole truth that I was working for Motorola. But, anyway, I befriended a guy who was, like, Sydney's wealthiest person who, He he owned the competitor to a radio business. Okay. And he was interested. I said I was doing this study on two way radio, you know, which was true. But he picked me up or had me picked up in his jaguar by his driver. And then drove drove me to There's a tower, like a lookout tower in Sydney that has an observation deck at the top. Yes. And I was dropped off there and told to go to the observation deck. And I went to the observation deck and here and this guy is there. To meet me and he goes and he unlocks this door. You know, on the observation deck in the, you know, there's a gift shop up there and other things. And the stairway is there. And we go up there and it's where all the two way radio stuff is and the towers and all the equipment and, you know, more observation so that, like, literally no one goes up into. And I'm sitting there and not that's where I'm doing my VOC work from. And interestingly enough in that project. I interviewed other people that Motorola customers And this was something about I mean, I don't even remember what the original objective of this project was. I think it was something like, you know, how to expand the service and, you know, just traditional stuff, how to increase share, whatever. Well, I had a few people tell me, oh my gosh, this is the only thing that works for me, and they just sort of mentioned offhand you guys could double the price, and I'd still, you know, I wouldn't have an alternative. Cool. So guess what? We told Motorola. You could double the price. Uh-huh. And guess what they did? Double the price. And I bet their customers love them for it. Right? Yes. Oh, I'm sure they love them, except they'd paid it, and they made a lot more money. So that that was sort of a good surprise in that you have to listen for thing, unexpected things. I think another on the on the downside is that, If you are doing voice of customer interviewing with someone, which is recommended, I mean, to you know, if you have a team of people that you're talking to, you know, someone or or another group. You all have to be on the same page and you all have to, understand that this meeting is not about you and your list of what you want to find out. It really should be about the customer and what they wanna talk about. Yep. And, the probably the the cardinal rule that gets broken the most is, some a term we use in in the legal realm, leading the witness. Yeah. We're all guilty of it. And it's so hard because when you ask an open ended question and you wait for a response, that pause of silence is so uncomfortable to human beings. I think we can stand it for, like, one point three seconds, but it feels like forever. But sometimes you just have to wait. Uh-huh. And when you're waiting, if you ask someone an open ended question, and you get no response right away and they're just looking blank blankly or whatever. It is torturous. To actually sit there and not say anything and to let them speak. Yep. But the the, you know, if you think about it, The pressure's on them. You ask them a question and they're thinking about it. And so, they might come out with something. And actually, under those circumstances, the thing that they come out with can be the most important thing Of the entire interview, and it's usually at the end. When all other things are exhausted, and then you ask them what else or what other things You know? Oh, this one thing that I forgot to mention, you know? I was with somebody. We'd gone across the country, flown, talked to this engineer, a sewer engineer. This is a sewer project. And I'm with another person, you know, and I tried to, you know, get him to understand this, how we're doing this and all the I asked, you know, it was at the end. And I said, so anything else, you know, just, you know, you know, rack your brain for anything else because this is, you know, we're almost we're almost done. And we've waited and we've waited And he was just about to say something. I just know he was literally he was just about in fact, he was starting to say something. And my my buddy interrupted and said, sustainability. I'll bet I'll bet that's a really big issue for you. And he's like he's like, yeah. I guess I guess it is. I guess it is. And then he started talking about that and that, and then and I'm just like, dying. And then after that sort of side conversation, I said, you were just about to say something. You know, what was that? I don't remember. Yep. Yep. It's it's crazy. Right? The importance of just allowing your customer to talk and zip it. Right? It's hard to do, but it is compelling and powerful when you do it. And I I think it's something that's absolutely often overlooked along those lines. I I remember when I was a product manager, one of I was in the tool industry and and one of my peers was conducting a focus group and they were comparing different offerings. And they the the product manager had a bias, a very clear bias because they were behind schedule on a couple on a project and it was a new product. And and so they had the trades people in the room and they were talking to them and and said, Now do you like this? And I'm gonna protect everything. So, you know, for a little there was, like, Do you like I'll I'll use a pen. Right? Do you like this pen with this really crisp point on the end and fine writing style and grips on it? Or do you prefer this competitive pin in the way that it writes? Literally, that was the way they set it up. And I'm sitting in the room and I'm going, you've got to be kidding me. And, of course, every -- Confirmation bias. -- he called out all all the features of the offering on the new product. Right? And then held up the competitive pit, alright, our offering and said, or this one? Right? And it was just, like, it was, like, it's, of course, they're, like, well, yes, I like I like the new one. And I'm, like, well, why? Well, because of the grip and the fine writing and this and that. You're right? And they they listed all over the place. And and I saw the report afterwards that was submitted, right, and it was pitched and everything. And it was just like that lit it was like, yes. It confirmed everything that we saw or a thought. I was like, of course it did. Yeah. Course it did. Yeah. And then you then you then you launch those products and and people will say, oh, yeah. That's great. I remember seeing that. Yeah. I'll take it, but you're you're not gonna charge me anymore for that. Yep. Yeah. Because you didn't ask me what I pay for, you know, that, or you didn't really end stand the outcome I was looking for. Oh, my word. Another day, another story. When we get together, I I was running a a business that was doing IoT before IoT was a thing. Right? It was still remote monitoring and diagnostics. And -- Mhmm. -- company had spent millions of dollars on something with, some false assumptions is a good way to put it. Alright? Specifically customer willingness to pay. Right. It was just like Right. Right. The the all the research had been done, and it was just like, do you like this product? Yes. Do you like this? Yes. Would you use this? Yes. Right? And then went back to sell it. No. I was like, what? Why don't you want it? Well, I don't wanna pay for it. Yeah. Well, you know, a lot of this comes down to mindset. And, you know, why are we in business? Are we in business for to make ourselves successful or are we in business to make our customers successful? Yep. So the new book that I'm working on is called out sight, out sight, customer out sight, not insight. Oh. Out sight. Because you know what? Everybody claims to have insight, you know, these days. Yeah. Everybody's doing BOC, everybody has insight, But do you? I still feel like most of the time. It's us just looking harder at customers from our perspective. Yeah. But to really understand, we have to look at us from their perspective, and that's That's what I'm calling outside. I love it. And I I just there's tricks to getting that. It's not impossible. It it is it is doable. But you really have to change you literally have to change your perspective. You do. There's a there's an exercise that I do regularly with our clients, and I did it when I was in in the companies as well. And it almost always people get a little nervous because I'm like, well, it's reality is it's a two day workshop. And they're like, oh, I don't want to spend two days doing this. Right? And it's, like, play. And then we sit down and and go through it. And when they I I met with the team, and they were like, we don't we can't afford to take two days out. I was like, great. And they said, okay. So what's the time line? Or I was like, well, essentially, every day in this workshop, is gonna save you a month as what I've been able to validate. It saves you a month in development time, right, before we go to market. And they yeah. Oh, okay. We can take we can take two days. Like, it it's a minimum of it's a minimum of sixty days that it's going to take us to make up that gap by us just not getting together in a room and focusing and looking at us through our customer's eyes. Yeah. That is that is the that is the key. And and, you know, you can say, oh, I really wanna, you know, get the customer's, you know, view on this. And but but unless you really know how to do it, correctly and you're willing to change that mindset of how you're going into it. Then you then you get what everybody else is getting. I mean, do you think your competitors are just sitting around not talking to customers or prospects, they're doing the same thing. Right. Anybody that isn't doing some form of voice of customer right now it probably isn't in business. So you just have to assume that everybody's doing it. So if you're gonna do it like everybody else, you're gonna get the same result as everybody else. That's exactly right. That is exactly right. Do it differently. Without a doubt. Alright. Hey, Dave. If people wanna touch with you, how did they do it? So it's a loomis marketing dot com, l o o m I s marketing dot com. Dave at loomis marketing dot com or that that website. And, got my first book, which is, marketing is everything we do. Love it. How serving how serving others bring success in business and in life. And, you can you can pick up a copy of that on Amazon. And Hey. You my my my phone number is on my website. You can call me, text me, whatever. I'm findable. LinkedIn, I'm extremely findable. So, so if anybody wants to reach out, would I love talking to people, new people I love it. And by the way, you've got one of the cleanest, LinkedIn profiles that I've seen. It is extremely compelling and very well done. Oh, thank you very much. I appreciate that. I think there's but there well, there's things that I know that I need to do to even improve it further because I've I've I've I've heard and read and things like that. So, you know, work in progress. Next time we get together, please tell me about it. Alright. Okay. Will do. Thanks so much. I appreciate it.