Skills Training with Interplay Learning and Ken Midgett

This is this is straight straight straight out of Crumpton with your host, Greg Crumpton. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of straight out of Crumpton. I'm Gabby Barr, and I am joined by Mr. Greg Crumpton, Greg are you today? Good morning. I'm doing great. I feel like I'm I'm in some kind of weird land. I've got like nine things going on around me. So I am in my prime. I'm I was like, don't have to focus on any one thing now except this. So I'm kind of parting the red sea. Laying it all down where we can talk to our our guest today who I'm very excited about because He is a a guy with a lot of seasoned experience in in what we do, trade wise, and, really excited to get, get going and, and learn today. Today's gonna be a good learning day, I believe. Fantastic. Well, I am excited to introduce Ken Midget. He is the plumbing market director at interplay learning. Ken, how are you doing? Today. I'm terrific. Every day is good. You get to decide how you want your day to be. Look at that. See? We're already rolling. That's what I love. So, Kip, thank you for taking time with us today. You, or or on our our podcast because I learned about you through a couple of different people. Dan, clapper, and, Doug Donovan, CEO of your company. And, because I follow I follow your company because y'all are doing some really cool stuff in our industry are in our space as well. And, I just thought it'd be cool to get you guys on, talk about what you're doing, how you're doing it, why you're doing it. But before we get going too deep, why don't you give us just a little bit of background how you how you, came to be with us today? Sure. Well, background first, I guess, licensed plumber for forty plus years. And, you know, let me let me jump Let me jump in right there because you just hit on something that I love. I I've often said this. There's two kinds of people in the trade. Those that are scared to to shared their knowledge because they've always been scared of being displaced. And then a group like you who who embrace that opportunity to give that knowledge away. So I'm so glad to hear you say that. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I just That that just brushed me up when I get to hear that. That's actually a great point, and that's how I serve my apprenticeship with the first first group. Somebody that were afraid you you were gonna take their job. So, anyhow I applied at Lehigh current technical institute. It's CTE school in Lehigh County, Pennsylvania. Thinking I would never get the job because I had not one day of college in my life at that point. I I called. I said that when people say do you go to college, I said, yeah, I went to the school hard knocks. That's where I that's where I learned everything. So I applied and got the job and just never looked back and twelve plus years later, was a highly successful program. I won two national teaching awards, which is what catapulted me in in a spotlight with Doug and a couple other people. And the program itself was just it ran like a machine. It just really, really did. And it was very, very diverse. I had inner city students from Center City Allentown. I had people that lived out and way out in the suburbs of Lehigh County. I had women in my program, which I'm extremely proud of. I think you may have had Paige Knowles on this show. No? Yeah. In fact, I I got it touched out the page right now because I want her to do some fun stuff with us. So, yeah, for sure. Yep. Yeah. She was in my program along with her three sisters. Wow. Or two sisters, rather. So, yeah. And I had some other ones in there, and, it was it was a great ride. It really was and it got to the point where it really ran like a machine and there was a lot of cooperative education happening where the student going out in the workforce and working for a plumber and on a heating heating technician and that really changed the dynamics of the program when that happened. So we had all kinds of things that happened to get them to that point. But once that happened, everything started to really get I got a lot of traction. We started to place students. We got to the point where it was a hundred percent placement for every eligible senior. We had we had women going into the industry. And I think when you teach, you need to I think the number one job that you do with a high schooler is expose them to what's available. Right? There's so many different facets that you can work in in the plumbing industry and you're still part, you know, of the industry. Could be a a designer. You could work in the you could turn wrenches. You could be a CAD person. You could be an estimator. There's so numerous places that you can work and and be a supplier. Right? There's all these areas that you can work in and you're still part of it. So I made sure they were exposed to that and as it the the going back to the co op thing once that started to get traction and those cough students would come back into my classroom and see the students who weren't, that created that proverbial carrot. These ones that weren't on coop, they're seeing these brand new phones, watches, pickup trucks, and hearing these stories about how great it is to work out there and the pay is good. And it's not like working at McDonald's on Saturday night. And I have my Friday nights to myself, and I have my weekends to myself, and I'm earning twice what I would earn if I was working for a traditional high school job. And they were getting hours added onto their apprenticeship. So that was another thing that was extremely important. When those students in the classroom would see the other side that if you will, the people that were the students that were gonna co op, they would say, I gotta get there. I gotta be that person. You know, and money was definitely an influencer to they they, you know, all the bling and the the the worldly things, if you will, when they would see those that that made that chemically just happen in my classroom. Just it really just exposed it. You know, Ken, I I think and and we talk a good bit about awareness you know, when we're talking about recruiting for the industry, recruiting for plumbing, welding, fitting service checks, what have you? So many people don't get the the fact that this is such a wide birth of opportunity. You know, you you mentioned that in plumbing, the same holds true and sprinkler fitting in any of these verticals, you know, my my deal is HVAC. But under that umbrella, my god, you can do twenty thirty different things and still an HVAC person. And I know in plumbing, you know, you can be medical gas. I mean, you have all these specialties that. When people think about plumbing, you know, the first thing they think about is is the waste and the water side When people think about air conditioning, the first thing they think about is their home, you know, being comfortable in the summer. But there are so many things that if we could just and I had this conversation yesterday, how do are are actually Monday. I I don't even know what day it is, but anyway, some day before some day before right now, I will talk to you, A fella, about recruiting young people, transitioning people, middle of the road people, you know, mid career people. How do you create that awareness? And I think it it it so crucial that we can increase our pull if we can increase the awareness. And you know, that's part of what I feel like you guys at interplay are doing so well. Is because of the technology that you utilize, with everything being virtual, everything being VR, I assist, all kinds of cool stuff that is you know, in the common vernacular right now and what's going on in the real world and kind of making that connection between what you're doing what the world needs, which is plumbers, among many other skills. And then, you know, tying that together with the the the need, the the the human pool of people that are available to do it. And then the why, you know, is It's to create a a great lifestyle. It's a career. It's providing very well for your family. I just I just love that connection that you guys have made. Yeah. The the tool, the product, the interplay, simulation software. That is like a magnet for the the I'm gonna say the seventeen to twenty five year old that's really involved in gaming because it's so it's so similar to it. You know, if you if they're wearing a headset, you can wear a headset. You can play you can do it on a laptop. You can do it on an iPad. But when you're in that simulation environment, it's it's the closest thing that you will get to in the real world. Yeah. You know, when you have to when you have to pull a toilet, you have to bend over and grab the toilet to lift it up. When you have to check a contactor on a on a condenser. You've gotta get down on your knees. Right? So just like you would in the real world within with a meter and be able to get onto the contacts. So It's the closest thing that you can get to to train somebody, muscle memory, and steps. Right? That's why I think it's such a good recruiting tool because first, let's just talk about training itself. When you have a when you have a training environment, a training culture in your company, you're automatically gonna be one step ahead of someone who isn't. Yeah. Because now you're if you're my employee now you're more than just a number. You're you're important to me because I'm I'm investing in you. I'm training you for your career. We're looking at things like your career trajectory. Like where do you wanna be? How do you wanna get there? How much money do you need to earn to have this in your personal life? All these things that really work well in the recruiting environment because the those people talk. Right? Which is the ultimate way that edge that knowledge gets spread, you know. Through digital chat, you know, people are talking about what's working. Now, I wanna go back, like, second because I just had this flashback Right when the pandemic broke out, we had this event in at XOI. And we had several technology companies come in. It was it was you guys, Doug himself came. It was XOI. And it was eye connect. And we were all in a room together, and Aaron, of course, from XOI brought really, really hot chicken in there Nashville hot chicken and to see how brave we were, which is as usual, manhood challenge. And, I remember being down with using your tool, and I remember being up under looking up at something holding, you know, my meter. And and then I I told Bill, who was with us, from North Park, innovations, Bill, northrop, and and his wife, Lori, were there with us. And I said, Bill, you gotta get a picture of me in this physician because I couldn't see me, but I knew I looked really goofy, goofy on my knees, on the floor. In the middle of my room, something around me, but I'm like, you know, in this weird post. To to what you said, Ken, is the best thing short of being in real life, but I go back to the safety aspect of what your training does. I can't get shocked by making a bonehead move with your software and your your platform. Like I can in the real world. And, you know, we we had an incident this summer with an intern that proves how valuable it is. To do some work with VR tools before you get real tools in your hand because this kid made a mistake and and the guy he was working with, they made a mistake. Now that kid doesn't wanna be involved in the industry anymore. Because he he wasn't hurt severely, but it hurt his feelings more than anything. And it scared his mom. Because she was like, holy crap. I don't need my kid exposed to this. Each seventeen year old guy. But your tools allow people to learn, damn near in a real time real world environment, without that risk, and I love that piece about it. And I I missed that for a couple of years. I really did. I I I thought I understood the full value of interplay, until I thought about it from the safety aspect. And I'm like, man, that's a game changer because You, and I both know getting shocked socks, you know, it just does. Nothing fun about it. Nothing. And if we can prevent one person from getting lit up, then the tool has done it job because we learn how to do something properly and safely. And and that's the piece that I'm so glad I finally, I don't know, just I'm thick between the years, I guess, but it's a big deal. You know? But, I mean, I'm responsible for safety at our company. We have six thousand employees. I want them to learn, the best way they can, but I don't wanna get anybody injured in the learning process. I want them to to come out, you know, as a technician, as a plumber, as a welder, whatever, unscarred, but full of knowledge. Sure. Sure. Yeah. We we really bake in safety so much into our content. And, you know, we have great subject matter experts who just like me have experienced in the field and realize when you do this part, this is what you need to be in this position or when you do that or you need to have this on or you need what whatever that whatever that may be in the environment. And the other side of that, how it gets deployed is when they take an an assessment in a simulation. Everything is off. Right? So they any any help that they got in the simulation to guide them through the simulation when they were learning, that's all removed. So things that would normally be highlighted, it's automatically gonna bring up an AM probe. It's gonna bring you the probes. Now you have to know you need to get the info and you have to go to your toolbox and get it. Well, when you do something unsafe, it knocks you out and you start over again. Yeah. Right? So there's a that's the consequence for that is now the learner's gotta revisit it, but you it's so it's not just the muscle memory and how to do the tasks. You're you're learning Well, if I would've stuck my hand in there and that would've been the real thing, I would've got whacked. Right? Yeah. So, that part of it is is great that it sets that tone of how it has to be. And the other part about it is it's basically impossible for the learner to cheat. When you put as a learner in a simulation and, they're in there by themselves and they're in an assessment simulation, It's all you. You need to know that you need this tool, that tool, when to pick it up, what to touch first, when to turn it off, when to turn it on, You need to know all those things. So it's really proving that you have learned all of it, the safety, the sequence of ops, etcetera. No. No chat GPT can solve that problem for us. Kathy, I'm I'm curious, because of of your youth and your your, electronic digitally native personality is safety important to people your age? Do you think that people think about safety? Because I think back when I was a young guy learning the trade, safety was on the thing at my for my age group then. Like it like I feel like it is now. Do you think that that's an important piece of the puzzle while we're making this trade opportunity aware to people? Is that is that resonate? I think, I think, yes, for me at least, that's something that I would be concerned about. I mean, I think being able to do it in a simulation, because the other thing is especially for hands on learners like myself. I learn best from doing it. Being able to have a simulated version where you can do the experience but not be in a situation where you could potentially be putting yourself in harm's way is definitely appealing, especially when you are maybe working with a live wire or anything along those lines that could potentially electrocute you if you're like, you make the wrong move. So I think, yes, it's something that I would say is important to me. And I definitely have friends that I feel like are also safety concerned as well. I know I feel like when I was in high school and, I was taking ag classes and things like that, that was a big thing as well. We had welding that you could take and safety was a really big concern when everyone was was in the workshop. And I do know that I had friends who were like, oh, welding is so cool. And I would be like, well, why don't you take it? And one of the biggest reasons was the safety of it because they didn't wanna get hurt. Or when I was taking woodshop, when I was in middle school, there were kids who didn't wanna sand their CO2 cars that we were making because they were concerned they were gonna end up sending their finger off with the with the big sander. I don't know what it's called. Yes. So I definitely I definitely think it is a concern for don't know about my whole generation. I also feel like as and this might be a little gender specific. But I also feel like as a woman, I am just genuinely, like, a little more concerned with my safety. I think my my male friends that are my age are definitely a lot more willing to go out and do things that I would never consider doing solely based on safety reasons. You know, that's interesting. A lot of this professionals that are female. And, I just I never really put that together till you said that. I might have to dig into that a little bit, but I so two things. That's cool that you didn't wear your sandals to welding shop because that wouldn't have been good. I'm really thrilled that you're age that hell you even were exposed to shop. That's a good thing. So god Yeah. I didn't I didn't take welding. I was doing vet courses because I thought I was gonna be a veterinarian at that time. It would not happen obviously, but I was taking veterinary courses, which is how I was exposed to shop because they were all in the same area, but I did think welding was cool. And honestly, I probably would have taken it if I hadn't been taking my my veterinary courses. But yeah, I definitely think that safety, especially for for me, would definitely be a big concern. And as far as a tool that can be used for training that really, kind of alleviates a lot of those safety concerns would be really awesome. Cause I also think another issue when it comes to safety is also like not necessarily panic. I don't think panic's the right word. But those nerves, I mean, as my dad would say, when I was learning how to drive, those who hesitate get hit, And so I think I think in that case scenario, it's like I know myself and as like an anxious person, if I started out and I was on I was on the job doing it for the first time ever. I think honestly, I could potentially be putting myself in harm's way just from being nervous. So the sheer fact that you get kind of a practicing opportunity in a safe environment before going to the real environment, I think that also helps too because you're kind of in you're more sure of yourself and you're more confident. And because of that, I think you're less likely to get nervous and have like a nerve slip up. Yeah. Now that makes sense. Can can do you when when you're, showing or, I, demonstrating the tools in the in the platform, does that come up? Do you do you do you get a sense that people, appreciate being in that safe environment before they go out. I mean, does that resonate what Abby said? Well, I could tell you employers definitely appreciate it. You know, because of the cost of it's not just the person getting hurt, although that's that's a bad thing too. Right? It's all the costs associated with the person not being there if they're not able to work. Right? So the learners, are learning it indirectly Right? Because they're they're more absorbed by what they're learning than how it's a safe environment. But I think when they see in the real world, something that happens, obviously, somebody gets shocked as a good one, somebody gets burnt Right? I think when they see it happen in the real world, then they really appreciate what the training does. Yeah. You know, It's such a good point. A, a good friend of mine was severely burned in an accident many, many years ago. Up in Pittsburgh. And we brought him in to one of our safety meetings to showcase Really, it was based on complacency, becoming complacent on the job site. And the the series of events leading up to this accident were, like, you know, you've heard the thing, death by a thousand razor blade cuts or whatever it is. And and that's exactly how it happened. There wasn't this one big shining moment, but there was an accident that occurred over the course of a day. It took that loan happen. But when our folks were able to hear Sean talk and describe what happened and then seeing the life altering result that happened for him. It really drove a lot of conversation within our team, how vigilant you need to be on the small things. And I think that your tool does that really well. You know, it makes you think, like, you said, you know, if you if you screw up, you start over. And it makes you think of how important those small steps can be. Yeah. Well, you're starting over because in the real world, you may not be starting over. You may be going to a hospital. Right? Yeah. Exactly. So yeah. I I think it's a great thing that is taught from from being an educator. I did have interplay in my interplay learning in my program it was too little too late, you know, it was probably right before COVID is when we got it. Yeah. But I could really see the advantages of using it in that environment too because safety sometimes is the hard thing to get across to the high scores. You know, they just they think they're resilient. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. I that isn't gonna happen to me. That's their famous saying. It won't happen to me. So so so using it in that environment is really powerful. For a younger learner to feel comfortable when they go into the lab and do the real thing. So we've talked about we we kinda fast forwarded just because you got such cool technology. I know we we needed to get there, but, also, Really, you're you're probably a little bit younger than I am, but we're we're roughly from the same generation of learners and how we learned on the job and what have you. But I'm really curious of how you got started into plumbing, running your companies, and then while you were running your companies, how you were able to recruit? What did what did you do to create awareness and to recruit people into your business and or the profession. Tell us a little bit about that because I I think that that's probably as German as as the technology. Yeah. I, you know, I got started when I was super young. I was a sophomore in high school. And I started to do it and I realized that There's no way I'm gonna do anything else but work with my hands. It wasn't sold on plumbing just yet, but I knew that I was gonna work do something that was gonna be concentric. Right? I was not gonna be sitting behind a desk. And, as I grew into my career in in the high school moment. I asked I went to at that time, they called it voc vocational learning. Right? It wasn't called CTE. Did really well in that and had a had a great teacher that was just a teacher and a mentor, right? That kind of person. Graduated and went right into the industry. Worked my way through that journeyman, got my masters, with the intent that I was gonna have my own business and started the new construction design, which is pretty much the entry level for anybody. Didn't know anything really about what I needed to do to be a business person. And that's some advice to give to any listener. You know? Don't base your costs on what your competition's doing. You know, know how to calculate what it is to run your business. It's so critical. Right? And look for alternative ways like interplay to have training that's much less expensive than bricks and mortar training. So did that for a couple years and then I I actually started to get bored with the new construction. I I it wasn't what like I was, wasn't making money out. I was just getting bored. It was just wasn't entertaining me. So I had seen a seven went to a seminar and it was Frank Blough junior who who taught it and he's one of the founding fathers of c two thousand, which is now Next star, and Matt opened my eyes to running a business the correct way. And from that point, I really learned how to do recruiting how to find how to get people trained, how to run a business. Right? So back to your burning question of recruiting, in the first bet business with new construction, if you had a pulse, you had a job. Right? That's kinda how it works. And in the service side, when when I did the second business, I realized it needed to be much more than that because you needed to be able to talk to a customer. You had to have communication skills. All these are the things that all these are the dynamics that come into that world. And I was never afraid to train somebody who knew nothing. Of course, you always wanna have this skilled person, right, that knows everything. But I was never afraid to train someone. If I saw someone working in a fast food store or I went past day place where they worked on automobiles. And I saw somebody who had and I had my vehicle getting worked on. And I saw somebody who had the right spirit and the right attitude I offered him a job. Absolutely. Me too. Great. There's nothing better than building a business. And having part of the model including make groom home growing your own technicians. Yep. Right? Yep. You know, it's so true. So true, Ken, you know, you to your point, you've gotta have that ratio. You've gotta have the experience. You've gotta have your go to guys, but you always always just fight baseball. Always have to have the farm team coming. You always have to have that next crop. I call it next gen now. And and to your point, you know, I I've found kids at the car wash. I've found kids working at Outback Steakhouse. I've found kids my my freaking nephew washing dishes when he was in high school, you know, at the at the family gathering because you know that that drive, that work ethic, that that that gene, I guess, some kind of DNA structure that you recognize because you know what it takes and, no, I I still appreciate that that sentiment of you find them where you find them and you're you're recruiting people not skill at that point. You're recruiting a character. You're recruiting you know, all that non tangible, at that point. But, yeah, I'm, dig that so hard. That's that's spot on for me. Yeah. We I was involved with, you know, obviously on advisory boards with the local, tech schools in in my market area. Can't say we haven't really got any good strong traction with that. I just think it just didn't it just wasn't in the cards. Right? But I always tried to support those programs. And go in and talk to the students too. That was something I always made it a point to do. Well, If you think about it, I'm I'm curious about this, and ask a lot of people this question, you know, what is the right age to start recruiting. And you mentioned Paige earlier. I I love that girl. And I've got her books right here that I keep because these are cartoon books that I don't know what what demographic, she targeted for this, but that to me shows that the earlier we start, the the better. You know, because you're showing people alternative ways to live, as opposed to what they may or may not being, being taught in school. Or exposed to, you know, Paige is, what, twenty two years old or whatever she is now. Just turned twenty one. Twenty one written books, you know, is an author, illustrator, a plumber, a speaker, you know, that shows me, aid, that our future is in good hands. We just have to find more good hands. Because they're out there. You know, I'm I'm not this this old grumpy guy that, you know, get off my lawn guy. I'm out there supporting these kids and and helping them as best I can from my position because there are a tremendous number of good kids out there. Absolutely. They're just wearing different colored these than they have been before. We gotta look for them. And when you find them, you know, I say it damn near every weekend. It's hand to hand, man. It's hand to hand combat. When you find one, bring that one with you. You know, you don't have to I I I had this call a week or so ago, and this lady was saying, well, what do what do you feel like the best way to recruit a thousand kids is. And I'm like, get a thousand journeymen to go get one each. That's how you do it. There's no magic formula here. It's it's really a grassroots thing that we can help solve if people that are my age and older will just take the opportunity to go get a kid, go get a veteran, go get a person in mid career change and drag them along. You know? Mhmm. They got so we've got so much tribal knowledge that is retiring every freaking day. And we're leaving we're leaving it on the table. We're not passing it along at a rapid enough rate. So I'm I know it's a little bit of a rant, but that's how we gotta do it, man. It's it's hand to hand combat almost. Yeah. You gotta not be afraid to take those risks as a business owner and you know, whether you use interplay or whatever method you're gonna use, you gotta invest in them. Yep. You know, you're you're if you run your company correctly, you have you have a training program in it and it's not something that just gets when times get hard, you stop training. That's all the more you you train even harder when times get hard. Absolutely. Right. You used you you you turned it the opposite way. Just that mentality. Just like they well, I'm not gonna mark it anymore because it's it's too expensive. Right? That's exactly what you need to do as a market when when things are tough. You know, we we saw that during the pandemic. So so vividly, where there were a lot of companies cutting out what they thought were unnecessary cost. They cut their freaking sales staff. Mhmm. And we, as a company, harvested a lot of those opportunities because suddenly there were really, really talented people on the street that to to know to to none of their doing got fired because of the pandemic. Right. We, as a company, said Oh, no. We're about to pour the coal on the fire because now we can get quality people on our team that know how they already know what they're doing. And so as soon as the pandemic started to slow and now has has abated the good bit, You know, we're we're we've got the talent. And, and to your point, you know, marketing, training, it's not just something to do on a snow day. It's something to do every day. You can't do specific. And Well, you know, we can't do it because of this. We can't do it because of that b s. You freaking budget your time. You budget your money to do it continuously. Yeah. Definitely. It's it's it's a very important part of a business. And peep business owners that aren't doing it and that that overwhelming philosophy I'm not gonna train them because they're gonna leave. Yeah. Well, you know, maybe you need to look in the mirror Why are they leaving? Because if you're training them and you're investing in them, they're probably not gonna leave unless it was just burned into their brain from the beginning of before that you even hired them, that's the way I was. When I started doing plumbing, I said, I'm gonna be an entrepreneur. I'm gonna own my own business someday. Yeah. I knew that when I was before I was even a journeyman. And you can't stop that person, but you can certainly a lot of the other ones aren't leaving because they wanna have their own business. They're leaving because they're not happy with you. So why aren't they happy? Well, you you've seen the, mean probably, I can't what is it? I it costs too much to train them, and then they're gonna leave anyway. And then the the counter to that is, but what if you don't train them and they stay? Exactly. It's so spot on. People want to advance, you know, to your point, not everybody's cut out to hang their shingle. I I'm like you were. I when I was an apprentice, I would come home from school, come home from work. I talked to my wife about what I wanna do when I own my own company. I was a freaking twenty one year old kid, but I knew that that was in me somewhere, for some reason. I don't know why. I didn't get it. I didn't get it from my parents. They weren't entrepreneurial minded, but, you know, I was. But to your point, there you know, ninety eight percent of the people do they want a great place to work. There there's a great book. I don't know if you've read it. It's, basically, while we have fourteen million people sitting on the sidelines not working, by by, Ibrahim Statz, the guy's name who wrote it. And, you know, there's three there's three tenant to what people want. They want to do meaningful work. They wanna work for somebody who gives a crap about them, and they want a upward ability to to get better. And, you know, yes, money's important, but that's kind of, like, the the price of admission these days. You gotta have money. You gotta have benefits. What can you do that differentiates yourself from the crowd and training, working in a safe environment, all of that stuff that we, you know, sprinkle on the top of the cupcake That's where that's where people wanna be. They don't wanna work some a hole that's not gonna train them. They treat some like crap. So I I wish there was some magic formula, but there's a whole lot of common sense involved in recruiting. You know, build a place where people wanna be. Yep. Yeah. And once you get it once you get it rolling, once you get two or three of those people, under your belt and you've proven that this this procedure works to bring them in. Look, you're gonna do amount of training, and then you're gonna go in the field. Then this amount of training, then you're gonna go in the field. And you prove to them, and they and they get the thrill of really doing something. From what they saw in whatever the training was, interplay bricks and mortar instructor, however it worked. When they get to see that, and they actually get on a job site and get the chance to do it and get told that it was done correctly. That's an a moment for that person. That's like dopamine. You know, we we all need that positive hit of mental, mental adrenaline because you work your you know, people think that plumbing or air conditioning is an easy thing or whatever, It's freaking hard to pass these state boards, and it's freaking hard to do this one as a hundred and fifteen degrees in the attic or out on the patio or where wherever. It it's not a easy thing. So when you get an attaboy or an attagirl for doing something that you've worked for, studying for Late awake at night and thought about instead of sleeping, man, what a what a positive reward? I don't I I think that's just a human thing that we need that positive reinforcement. And to your point, I love what you said. I just wanna tweak it a bit. Being, you know, using, VR training Bricks and mortar training or working with a journeyman. I I take the hybrid. I want some of all of it because it's all important. You know? I I I feel that way. Yeah. One of the one of the things about the the simulation trainer I didn't mention you know, we never we never say that we're a replacement for a bricks and mortar environment. Right. We're certainly not a replacement for an on job training environment, but Teaching someone more about what they're going to do before they do it is is a big pivotal change in in our industry, right? Because our industry wasn't that way. You know, when you go to To training for an apprenticeship program, you're learning all the things that someone's not gonna sit you down and teach you on a job site. So you're learning how to re re re blueprints. You're gonna You're gonna learn what the temperatures of sod or are. You're gonna learn how to size a pipe. How to size a duck. Right? That you're learning it and that you're learning those things. Whereas with simulation training, you're learning that and you're learning how to do it to about the ninety percentile. So I also say that, you know, how there's always this this rough relationship sometimes between a journeyman and an apprentice you know, to the point that when it's the new apprentice, the journeyman says, go sit over there in the corner and watch me. Right? That's the worst thing you could do to somebody. Right? You're not you're not teaching anybody anything, but how to sit in a corner. And you're intimidating them to learn. So so that same person coming on that job site and let let's say whatever it is they're hanging pipe, they're putting a water heater and whatever. If they took the training before they got there. It's a dynamic change and in the relationship between the apprentice and the journeyman. Number one. Number two, It's a it's a lot faster. You're increasing the efficiency on-site because now that journeyman's not saying this is a piece of pipe This is PVC. Here's how you glue it together. Here's the cement. Cause they know that already. They just haven't done it with their hands yet. In the real world. You know, you you mentioned earlier in our conversation about understanding the cost of running a business and the cost of operations And that goes right into your crew mix pricing. You know, the the higher educated newcomer you have, the better your crew rate pricing is because you've got a younger person with more skill I'm sorry. I'll rephrase that with more knowledge able to help the job move quicker so your efficacy of your of your pairing of folks goes up as opposed to just having two people. One of them totally unproductive. So It's a very, you know, I mean, we could talk about that. I could talk about that because I love thinking about that for forever, but I know we can't because of our time constraints, but so tell tell us if you will, Kim, what what's coming next for you, as far as interplay. You know, what what's what's on the horizon for you guys and what what's revved twenty nine look like after after you get where your You probably never comfortable, but what's next? That's a better way of saying that. Well, you know, we there we have a whole team dedicated to innovation. Right? And it's one thing I wanna make a point about the whole entire company. There there are literally some of the brightest people that work there. And you know, some some of our people who make the art for the simulations that, you know, we're talking picks pixel and and Pixar rather and Disney and former it's just their their skill sets are phenomenal in what they do. And, some of them are involved with the innovation team, but, we're we're doing some things where user can make their own generated content in a virtual environment. You could actually do some teaching in a virtual environment and I could be teaching you how to how to set up a how to, commission a boiler, right, with with with you putting a headset on and I'm putting a headset on and it's extremely interactive. You're in the same room as me. Yeah. So if if I say Greg, show me where the cycle is this on this on the steam boiler. And how would you replace it? You're right there. Right? So I'm able to watch what you're doing. Now it's virtual. Right? So there's gonna be a couple things that isn't perfect, but you're gonna have a much higher level of knowledge than if I said here, read this chapter in this book. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, we're we're we're playing in those areas. We're also doing some things with AI. Or have some things on the slate that are gonna become beta tested very shortly. There was already an announcement from Doug, where there's kind of a an AI assistant involved in a simulation. So let's pretend I'm I'm putting in a gas water heater and I'm just curious. I wanna know what happens if I turn the gas cock off and it doesn't hold. What should I do? Right? You can ask this AI assistant who looks at all of our content. They don't necessarily search the real world. They search our content and then they get an answer. Well, if it doesn't hold, you would need to turn to turn the main main shut off off at the meter and replace the gas cock. You know, vent the line, replace the gas cock and and then re then refill it, relight pilots, whatever's necessary. But you're gonna get the whole story including the safety aspect what needs to be done. So, we're looking at this isn't gonna replace a journeyman, but we're looking at it as kinda like this go between person that gives this higher level and critical and creative learning? Well, I think that you know, and and I've talked about this. I've talked about this before. When I work for my dad, at at the large company in Atlanta I work for, You know, this was pre cell phone. So we had, he his his group of technicians you know, he was our go to technical support. And, he gave us a list of ten things that we had to know before we called him. And you usually figured out the problem while you were answering those ten things. And to me, that's what you're doing with that AI assist is you're walking through a higher level of of critical thinking about the problem as you're going through the problem. So I I love that. So, hey, maybe maybe you could call it ask page. An honored page, no. But, hey, Paige. What would I do if, if my gas cock doesn't hold, Well Yeah. It's it's it's we'll find out in another couple weeks where we are with it, but, I think it's gonna get some traction. It's gonna help people You know, I think that's the thing that is missing in a lot of environments is teaching apprentices to how to critically and creatively think. Yep. You know, when I was in my program in in in LCTI, I didn't always give the answer when when a student would work on a project and x y z was wrong with it. I didn't always give an answer and and sometimes I actually had it had a a boilerplate expression that said, that's a great question. Let me know how you make out with the answer. You know, because I wanted them to think because that's what the world wants, thinkers. Right? Not spend all day thinking, but, you know, and then it got to the point where I also did it with the apprentice is in the business and in my classroom. If you have a problem, you need to come to me with three resolutions. I don't care if it's they're wrong. I don't care if they're unsafe. I want you to come to me with three resolutions, and I want you to tell me what you think is gonna fix the problem. And then we'll have a discussion. And then even those discussions are led to make them think more. Yeah. Right? So if it was a if it was a safety reason they gave me, I would say, are you sure you wanna do it like that? Because you might get banged up. Right? Yeah. So that was another thing that I think is missing in the apprentices don't get that opportunity to do that critical and creative thinking. No. No doubt. I love I love that process you put them through. But well, Ken, we're we're up on top of the hour. This has been this has been really rewarding for me personally because I've learned a lot. And every time I get to talk to a smart person, I come up with all this. Now I gotta go purge my brain for, like, twenty minutes on paper. We write all this stuff down. I've been thinking about, that you've brought up. So I just, you know, I wanna reiterate how much I appreciate you coming on, sharing your story with us a little bit. Sharing a little bit more about, interplay and what you guys are doing over there. Look forward to following along with that. What's the best way people can follow along with what you're doing and what you guys are doing? How how can how can people track you down? Well, certainly, you can get a hold of me at interplay learning dot com, and drill down through that. My my email address is first letter in my name and and my last name, Kaymeidjeda interplay learning dot com. My colleague, Dan Clapper, who's already been on this show. We both are very of on LinkedIn. You can absolutely find either one of us, and we're always we're always willing to help. And we're we're willing to help business owners from mister from from a strategic lens in how you should be doing your training. Right? Not not just because you're gonna buy interplay, but more about this is what you need to do, and this is how you have to make it work. Right? So we we do we spend a lot of time in those spaces. We both are authors you have stuff published in trade journals. So that's one of the things that is important that we will our takeaways that we wanna give is make sure people know. If you have a training question, him and I are both happy to answer it. I love that, and I'll look at you guys, and I'll look at myself this way. I'm I'm an industry guy. I mean, I'll work for a fabulous freaking company. But I'm an industry guy, and I'll help anybody. You know? It's just like we we have to share the knowledge. We have to recruit. We have to create awareness and you do that by helping people, you know, so close that. But really appreciate you coming on. It's been a blessing. I appreciate you having me. I hope you the rest of your summer goes off without a hitch and that you're busy and that you're sweating and all that good stuff plenty of sweat to go around. I hear you brother. Well, thank you. And, Gabby, if you will, I guess, go ahead and take us to the house and put another bow on top this lovely conversation. Everyone, thank you so much for joining us for another episode of straight out of Crumpton. Make sure to scrap to the podcast for more episodes like this, you can find us on Apple and Spotify Podcast. And don't forget to check out Greg crumpton dot com for all of your Greg crumpton content.