Stepping Into Curiosity and Wonder in Leadership with Danielle Sunberg

Hello, and welcome to Tuesday as a Morrisy. I'm Adam Morrisy. Today, I'm thrilled to be joined by Danielle Sumburg. Danielle is a former big law attorney who became a wellness entrepreneur and ex expert in the art of conscious living. She's also the author of the book Atlas of Being, which I have the chance to read and enjoyed thoroughly. Danielle, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks, Adam. I'm excited to have a conversation with you. Likewise. What I thought was so cool about your story is, you know, I I think a lot about, the hero's journey and, the kind of the two mountain shape that often, like, paths can take. David Brooks an author I enjoy wrote a book called The Second Mountain, which is all about, you know, the second leg of the journey, but I thought it was just a beautiful story you shared. And it seems like these amazing insights just continue to unfold, but, you know, I'm kind of the first mountain. You mastered, the western world. Kinda like analytical thinking law, and you you gave it up to eat, pray, love, in some regards in and helped, helping people master the art of being and and living in a really integrated way. What do you what do you feel the work you do is really a valid. That's a great way to frame it. I appreciate that. So this is really the fundamental question of the book. This is what my work is really about, which is also the most fascinating quest I think we can ask ourselves, which is who am I? And it's not a question that the Western world teaches us to ask ourselves. The Western world teaches us to live up to the expectations and the values that it tells us that we should do and should be in order to meet the certain criteria to feel worthy and successful. Our own personal, unique individual desires and values aren't really a part of that equation. And so after in the book, you know, it's it starts with me quitting my big law job at the attorney. And finally asking them question to myself for really the first time in a meaningful way where I didn't just think about it and then move on with life. It ended up being the question that sat with me as I traveled across six continents. And so that's the work that really guides me forward now with you know, my own life still and of course with clients because it's the question that points us into ourselves. And has us draw out the incredible power of who we are to create a life that's truly fulfilling and nourishing. Yeah. I I resonated a lot with, your story, particularly. And I was I I worked at one of the consulting firms, and, around twenty seven or twenty eight, I was realizing, you know, I I've tried to get disproportionate amount to value of things that couldn't provide it. You know, whether it was, you know, work, school, superficial relationships, etcetera. So I I had a a very similar experience at Resinet with or deeply, you know, what was what was your awakening like and and how do you see, kind of the limits of that rational mind? And kinda linear thinking that it can be sometimes more circumstantial that we typically kind of value and associate, in the west. Yeah. Okay. So these actually both really go together perfectly. So what happened was, I was working for this. Firm in Washington, DC, as a commercial educator, working on the biggest trial of my career defending my client against a six billion dollar judgment, which you know, because read the book. And at that point, I went from working your typical twelve hour day to twenty hour days. And you know, didn't have time to go to the gym or eat healthy food or do any of those even those small self care things that we do that help us to sustain our lives. And so I crashed and burned. I was diagnosed with depression. I came back from that trial completely drained. And the partner on the case called me and said, the jury came back with their verdict and congratulations. We won. And I said, great. Before I knew it, I added, I quit. And we both sort of hung on the phone in stunned silence. Like, I couldn't believe that I had said this. And what really got me there was, of course, that level of suffering that I didn't want to, you know, continue living my life with anymore. But the other piece of that awakening was the depression diagnosis. And it wasn't just the diagnosis because look, the diagnosis wasn't a surprise. It's not like my doctor said, hey, Danielle, you're depressed. I was like, oh, really? Like, okay. I've been living with myself for a while. The part that really got me to take a a fresh look at my life was the fact that all the conversations around the depression were about how to push through. How to not change anything at all? And just keep living the life that I had created, which, you know, it's a fair assumption that you get to a certain level of success in your life and you don't wanna lose it. So how do you continue living life. And so here's your medication. I'm not saying medication is right wrong, good or bad. That's just sort of typically the journey you experience. So I had to be the one to step up and look at my own life and say, is this what I want? Is this something I wanna continue pushing through? And so the answer for me was no. And how that gets to the limits of the rational mind is that when I finally asked myself that question, all of a sudden, this incredible wisdom showed up that was not available for me when I was just looking at check boxes. If this is what a successful life looks like. And that wisdom came from the depression. It transformed from an obstacle into the most life transformative literally wisdom of like, oh, it's trying to tell me something about who I am. And so that piece of who we are that's not in, you know, the confines of the mind is what inspires us how we feel wonder and curiosity and inspiration to get out of bed. And then the mind, which is this incredible, you know, analytical problem solving machine is how we get from the inspiration to the execution. And a good example of that is, you know, how we got to the moon. Right? Like, we needed their minds to sort out how to actually solve all the problems and logistics and things that needed to get sorted so that we could arrive to this new place we'd never been before. But the wonder, the curiosity, the excitement, right, the deep, oh my gosh, around going to the mood. That doesn't come from the mind. Yeah. It comes from like a a place much deeper. I I liked how you phrased in the book. You said, you know, is something to the effect that, like, you know, I wasn't it wasn't that I was depressed. I was just responding normally to my circumstances. And my circumstances were making me feel this way. But it wasn't that there was anything wrong with you. It's really a problem with your circumstances. Right. Yeah. It was really about, you know, this lesson is also a great story in the book about understanding that our experience of life is one hundred percent generated by our thoughts. And so we tend to conflate things and say, you know, I am depressed. Where I am overweight or whatever I am poor. That's not really true, but then our self worth gets entangled in that conflation of I am that thing. No. You are experiencing a situation in which you have an experience of or you're whatever the thing is. That's not who you are. And when you can get that little bit of space back by just saying something like I have this or I am experiencing x. All of a sudden, oh, we have so much more room to breathe and wonder and create from new possibility than, you know, when we stuck in that in that experience of attachment to that experience being who we are. Yeah. How do you see the role of thoughts in determining our possibilities and outcomes? So I'll tell the story quickly from from the book around I think this is such a good example, which was when we were in Greece. I was in Greece with my husband and three other friends, three other couples, so eight of us. We were traveling on a catamaran for a week. And, there was a day when the captain of the Kadarance that I wanna take you to this tiny little island where there's only room for one boat. You're gonna have it all to yourselves, and it's gonna be amazing. We said, great. Let's go. We start sailing. This gorgeous perfect day turns into, you know, like a really horrifying storm, just bad. My husband is from Florida. So hurricanes for him are just a season. Storm on a boat, no big deal. So he's like riding the waves feeling great. He looks like Neptune god of the sea. He's out there with his rain jacket on doing a little rain dance. A girlfriend of mine who has been seasick the entire time and now is out of seasick patches, by the way. Does not like the fact that we're on a storm on the boat, and she's hiding under the deck of the boat curled into a ball and she's starting to text messages to her family and friends just in case she doesn't make it out of the storm. And I'm watching both of these people having such different experiences of what is in fact the same experience. Right? They're both on the same boat. We're both mortals subject to the same, you know, potential fatalities. Right? So why would they have such different experiences It has to be what they were thinking and what they believe is true or possible. And so for my husband, he did not believe it was true or possible that he would die. And for my other girlfriend, it was very possible for her. Right? And so it's just it goes to show how our thoughts are so influential. Over the experience that we have. Yeah. No. No. Totally. I definitely relate to that. And then I think about thoughts and I think about identities. That was a huge theme in your book. It's like, how do we get our identities? Where do our identities come from? And are we choosing identities that serve us? Or that keep us confined. How do you feel about how do you feel how, like, structure and because I I can see this in my own life. You know, parts parts of me where I've been a little too controlling. And in some rely, some ways, limited my upside and limited my full potential because I was so focused on keeping things confined. How have you seen that play out either in your life or for your clients? Yeah. That's a great question. So what we tend to do is create this persona, right, of who we are, and I talk about mine in the book, which was of this very highly respectable attorney, you know, wearing the right shoes and drinking the right wine and networking with the right people. And we tend to calcify ourselves inside of this persona because we work really hard to perfect it. It's really important to us to live up to what we want the world to think of us as. And we don't let ourselves grow beyond it. So we control that persona moving through the world. And then one day, you know, just like you said when you were twenty seven twenty eight and just like for me when I was depressed at my we go, this persona isn't working for me anymore. I don't want this anymore. And so it is this really tough experience of letting go of something that we have become so attached to and that has worked for us in so many ways. And gotten us really far in life to then say there's something else possible for me. I have more potential in who I can be, and it requires a ton of bravery and commitment to let go of that old persona and grow into something new. And one way that we've all done this, whether we realize it or not is in the demic, right? Because we had to let go of control of what we thought life looked like. And what that allowed us to do even though it was really scary was tap into this depth of resilience and creativity and resourcefulness and compassion that is our innate tool set as human beings, but that we don't need to tap into when life is well. Yeah. I had a guest a couple weeks ago named Liz Weisman, you talked about She talks a lot about something I really appreciate. And so I've spent more time thinking about the power of not knowing. And she's like when we are when we don't know or forced to operate with openness. We're full first to operate with curiosity. We're forced to ask for help. All the things we would do when we would be at our best and treating each other people were forced to act with humility. So I think that's amazing. And it kinda ties together some of the things you're saying with control and thoughts and beliefs. When we let go of control, we see the world through a lens of, hey, everything that happens is, you know, the best possible outcome for me. It really transforms what we believe is possible and also our experience. How can I interact with this mistake or this outcome that I, you know, I'm really don't want from a lens of curiosity in learning? Yeah. I mean, you're speaking exactly to the power of growth mindset and the ability to, step out of judgment for a minute, right? Because judgment is something that also lives in our minds. It's our, you know, paradigm of right, wrong, good, bad, And we often are really stuck there and we make life really punitive that way because we judge everything And to take a step back from that and say, well, also, like, by the way, a judgment is really, tied to space time. Because you can look back on things in life and judge it completely differently than you did in that moment. And see the gift in it when you connect the dots in the rearview mirror, which can't do in the moment it's happening. So the ability to say, okay, because I know that that's true, that judgment is a fix space time experience, and it's only what's going on in my mind. It's not, you know, it's not actually absolutely true in what's real. Then we give ourselves that space again for growing and curiosity and compassion and wonder of, you know, what is possible because this isn't actually a bad thing. Yeah. You know, transfer me has been a big theme in your life and it's a a big theme of the work you do. Do you have a little bit of a change framework or change formula that either you work with yourself or you you work with with your clients? Yeah. Look, everything is really about how do I make decisions? So my change formula is looking at decision making because our lives is essentially our lives are a series of decision And a lot of those decisions are so second nature that we don't even realize we're making them or we don't realize we have choice to make a different decision. Even the decision of I'm gonna make coffee today because I made it every day and I like it, is a decision, even though it just feels so obvious, it's not. It is. And so the patterns that we are sometimes stuck in, we don't realize the power that we have to make a new decision, except when we really zoom in and at this times zoom out. So a lot of what I do with myself still, of course, and with clients is looking at the decisions that we make and and actually moving from swapping out tactics with different tactics to backing up and saying it's not about tactics. It's about mindset. So an example of that is let's say, you know, you walk in the door after work and you know you wanna be really present with your family. And, yeah, you can't seem to put down your phone. And so a tactic would be, okay, put your phone in a basket and put in the other room and leave it there until the kids are sleep or till dinner's over. And that's fine. If it works, great, but for a lot of people, it doesn't work, or it works for three days. And then they fall off the wagon. And so then they look for a different tactic. Well, what else could I do that might work better? And so the work is about slowing down and looking at the decision from a place of strategy and mindset and internal values, which is where our mindset comes from. As opposed to just looking at these tactics that, you know, may or may not work. Yeah. How do you think about think a lot about that too, pattern recognition, pattern shifts. I think one of the hardest things is, when you're in the the transition phase, from breaking patterns. Like, how do you how do you look at that challenge, that period that can be a very challenging triggering period for a lot of people You know, whether it's quitting coffee or bringing more mindfulness or responding differently to, perceived incompetence or perceived judgment. How do you think about that very challenging period to transition? Which would be in Campbell's eyes, a dark night of the storm. Yeah. Right. The dark night of the soul. And that dark night of the soul, excuse me. Yeah. So it's really about how I'm comfortable you can be with discomfort. Because what you're doing is really shifting the way you're showing up in the world and relating to your environment and your circumstances. And that can be really uncomfortable. And so the work is about saying, okay, what's a new way I can look at this experience of transformation that allows me to feel more comfortable. And one of those ways is shifting your mindset around what that means to be in that space of transformation and discomfort. As opposed to it being challenging and hard and because you're not good enough and all those things that come up, while it could be about opportunity and growth and you know, really stepping more fully into your potential. And that also, it doesn't need to be perfect the first time. Breaking a pattern isn't like, okay, I'm gonna quit coffee and then tomorrow I quit coffee. It's about a process. And so it's not linear and it's not a straight line forward. And that's sort of just the nature of it. No. It's really helpful. I mean, even just yesterday, I was at a in a social scenario, and I just didn't feel that comfortable. And I realized that, after it is, like, I survived it. And even just that, I it was, very in reinforcing and encouraging and kind of helped me break, time space, fixed, mindset around it. You you talked a little bit about your life at at Big Law, and I imagine you had a bunch of habits that, like, from the outside looking in, like, you you might have meditated. You might have journaled. You might have been a morning exercise or all these things. Has your relationships with habit chain habits changed over time? Yeah. As your your your motivators have changed? Absolutely. And, you know, the biggest way it's changed is that It's not really about I have to do this every morning so that I feel centered because I have one year old and a three year old, and that's really not available to me at this point in my life. So I've been a person who was like, yes, I need to exercise in the morning, and then I need to meditate, and then I have you know, my cup of coffee and I journal for five minutes. And I know other people who are like that, they have to have their ashwagandha tea and they hike to their waterfall. And they pray to the goddess gone in and and they do their things and they're like, and I need those things so that I can be the best that I can be. And so the work is about, well, what would it look like for you to be a little bit more adaptable or agile with those habits? And Having a one year old and a three year old is a great practice for that because I've learned how to juice moments of how to, you know, practice, presence, and build a meditation into two minutes where I'm making coffee in the morning is a great example. And using those two minutes where, you know, like, kind of doing a ballet dance over to the coffee mugs and choosing another that feels like my mood that day. Like, which one feels right for me? Okay. I choose this one, the picture with my daughter on it maybe today, or maybe it's my old law school journal mug. Whatever the right one is, and then I go over and I pick out the coffee. And look, I'm not even making my own coffee. This is an espresso machine where I put in a pot and press a button. Okay? But the point is, like, it's this little dance that I'm doing every day, and so I've built into it a presencing activation where I'm really in the moment and I take those two minutes to really be in my experience of life right then. Yeah. Yeah. You can there's ways you can incorporate, like, a lot of those morning routines and habits that serve you as you walk through the day. I I wanted to pick your brain on three themes that really hit me during reading your book. Two of them were probably won't surprise you a ton. One of them, you might be like, that hit you. One was, just curious on your your thoughts on these. Like, what impact do you feel the belief of that everyone's doing the best they can can have on, you know, one of our lives. So that one is one that actually yesterday just came up again for me and I went, oh, right. And it was such a place of centering and calmness for me because I was so mad at my husband for not doing the thing that he said he was going to do. Why can't you do the thing that you agreed to? What, where is your integrity? That whole experience came up. And I realized I was so entrenched in being right and that if you make an agreement, you need to hold your end of the bargain and it's that simple and it's that black and white. And then, right, after a little bit, I came back into my heart where right and wrong and judgment don't live. And I remembered he's doing the best that he can in that moment. And that's sometimes not as well as you want someone to be doing. But that's sort of just the way it is. And and the way that I really anchor that and know that that's true is because we live in our thoughts. Like I was saying in Greece. So if you're having a really bad day where you don't feel appreciated at work, and you come home, and there's so many things you have to do, cook dinner, clean up the toys for me in my life, get the kids ready for bed, and let's say my husband is there and I have to do it all and I'm feeling exhausted and drained and unappreciative. As soon as he walks in the door, I'm not gonna show up like, oh, Ted, how is your dad? I love you so much. I'm gonna be pointing my finger at him at all the ways in which I feel like he needs to show up better. Right? And so if he were to say to me, Danielle, like, why aren't you showing up in a way that feels loving and caring like my partner and teammate? Well, I was doing the best I could in that moment considering the thoughts I was thinking about my day. So it's just kind of giving that grace back to him or to whoever in your life. And not taking it so personally. Yeah. I have a mentor that says, you know, people could, do better they would Yeah. How do you how do you think about and coach people, on that topic that are like managers in, like, the workplace. So I think that's one of the hardest things I know for me personally is that response when, you know, you believe, you know, you have a belief in human potential and you believe that these people can be better. How how do you co people through shifting patterns to respond differently. Yeah. So a lot of it first of all is moving out of expectations and into agreements. So let's say instead of as a manager saying to your team, I need, you know, x done by Friday for a client y, and then leaving, it's saying, is it possible to do this? What do you need to make this work? And they might say, okay, I need these resources or I need to then not do this other project for you or whatever, and then you have collaborative agreement that you come to in which both parties have consented to the agreement and want to live up to it, which is a much more, joyful way to experience work number one and get the best out of your people. Then let's say the agreement that you both agree to does happen? Well, you can move into what I did yesterday, which is blame and shame and righteousness and pointing your finger. Right? Or you can come at the conversation with curiosity and say, you know, we made this agreement. Tell me about your experience of your week and what happened. And you know, you can locate the things that maybe weren't aware of at the time when you made the agreement so that you can make a better agreement next time. You know, some of these challenging experiences where, you know, that person kinda dropped the ball, but so did you. You didn't also respond to them the way you wanted to and you can both learn from it. Another theme from your book that really got to me. And it's a question I had heard probably, like, a hundred times. But just this time just, resonated with way differently. You know, what would you do if you could not fail? I think that was a really powerful one. And for me, like, I've been thinking. You're I you might just be like, oh, you're just saying this, but no. Every morning and every in the evening, I'm reading I made a little list on, like, what would I do and how would I feel? And some of them, I'll I'll I'll read something to you. You know, things like So, yeah, I've been reading this every morning and and really trying to feel into, you know, spending more time in stillness and seeing what comes up. Spending more time in deep work, deep work without a clear output, taking grander less rational ass action, This one kinda surprised me asking more people for help, which is kinda counterintuitive. If you couldn't fail, you'd ask more people for help, having fun with the challenges and struggle and expressing myself with full alignment Those are, you know, I probably have that's probably half of them, but the those summer that I'm really feeling into. Those are incredible. Thank you for hearing those. Yeah. That's a big deal. And, you know, the asking for help one is interesting because a lot of the reason why we may not ask for help is because we feel like we failed. So if you're not a failure, then you can ask yourself a lot more easily. What did that question? What does that question mean to you? So it's to me about stepping out of the head again and into the place of curiosity and wonder in the heart space because Well, I'll just say, as I've been an entrepreneur and holding my own vision, for my life and my company. Right? Then no one's gonna dream big for me. I have to do it. Right? So as an attorney, I was just a cog in the wheel, and I had all the things that I needed, you know, in terms of what society expected. I mean, with wealth and power and prestige and da da da da. But I was thinking and dreaming small. Like, I was just living in that small box. And it wasn't enough anymore. And so then it's like, okay. Now if I'm gonna start dreaming, what does it really look like to let loose and to, you know, go big and do moonshot dreaming? It doesn't mean I have to do those things, but just at least let myself drain them. Yeah. How how would we be pa how would it be possible for us to achieve something if we didn't at least think at first? Yeah. The last the last theme for today that I wanted to share, and I'd be curious on your feedback as if you're you're gonna be surprised at this, but It might have just been like mid paragraph during one of the final chapters, but you said we are built for reality. What does that mean to you? Yeah. That's so that's the last chapter of the book. And that I'm I mean, I'm just kind of swimming in appreciation that you picked up on it because it is something that I also take with me all the time and teach it to clients. What I mean by that is that we are built for this moment. The right here and right now. And a lot of times we get caught up and I don't know what to do and I don't know how to get through this and this is new for me and I feel incompetent or imposter syndrome and because our mind is reaching out into the future and saying, I don't know how to plan for you. Well, guess what? That plan that you think you need and that we often give ourselves is just psychological safety. It doesn't mean that we'll actually use that plan or that plan will come to fruition because we really have less control than we think. We can only do our best in each moment. And in each moment, you do know what to do. And this is what I speak to in my TEDx, which is really like it might be to that question of the big thing down and just be in the moment, which could be just having your cup of coffee. It might not be the right time to make those big decisions because you don't have all the information or something's about to change that will then reveal to you the answer and it will drop in like this aha moment. So it's kind of just trusting that what's right here and right now is all that you need. That's it. We were built for reality. Yeah. I I love. We were built for reality. It also helps you get out of a victim mindset. In some regards also because you're like, hey, like, I'm billed for this moment. Two things that stand out on that con concept. Yeah. I I think a lot about the right next small action. And I had a mentor when I was at PWD that said, you know, sometimes seeing the big picture is just identifying the the next right small thing to do. And it also reminds me there's a poem by a a guy named W S Merwin that starts with, if today was the last day of the world, I would plant a tree. So this idea of taking, you know, right small action in this sense, in the face of certainty, like, if if it was certain that it would be the last day of the world, but I think it it applies also to uncertainty as well. Yeah. Was it was it hard for you to come to conclusion to write a book? Was that was that a hard, you know, process for you? No. Not at all. No. Not at all. It was the easiest thing. Because look, as an attorney writing for me is natural, it's a way that I bought us the world. And so when I left my firm and started to travel, I thought, let me start a blog to keep people you know, involved in the loop. And I found, like, I did not want to write about nor did people really wanna read about what restaurant I went to you that day and describing, you know, like, it's okay. Fine. Go read travel and leisure if you want that information. So what I started writing about is this real inner journey that I'm on and how the outer exploration fuels that inner journey. And then all of a sudden I realized, oh, I'm writing a book. Yeah. Very good. Yeah. It that actually speaks to just next small action without sight of you know, what was unfolding for you. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Well, in addition to Alice, I mean, is there any other books or content sources you'd recommend to listeners? Oh my gosh. I have a ton a ton a ton. And I'm always dropping little tools resources to clients because there's just so many great things. And like you said, you could hear something a million times, and then the way someone says it, this other time goes, oh, right? And you just get it at that deeper level. And so I'm not here to say the way I say everything perfect. But I might know, right, like a little tool or the way someone else speaks to a a concept that's gonna really dig into you at a deeper level. So That being said, one of the tools that I most often am referring clients to listen to is this podcast called Caffeine for the soul. By Michael Neil. And it's it's like little ten minute podcast episodes where he just takes a really beautiful concept around self development or consciousness and offers a really nice way of understanding it. Before I let you go, Danielle, I've been really gracious with your time. What's the best way to keep up with you and your work my website, of course, is a great way to learn more about me and, you know, get to the book or see how you can work with me. It's my name, danielle Sandberg dot com. And I'm really most active on LinkedIn. So if you wanna just check out things that I post, when I have a moments or experiences that these little gems of wisdom pop in. I'll post them on LinkedIn. I haven't really cracked the Instagram nut yet, but LinkedIn Yeah. Well, very good. Thank you so much for coming on the show. We'll have links to, your LinkedIn and your website as well. And look forward to continuing this conversation soon. Thanks, Adam. It was fun.