Placemaking For Tomorrow: Insights on How Entertainment Retail Drives Developments

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this live broadcast roundtable brought to you by VCC. I'm your host for today, Gabrielle. And I am thrilled to be joined right now by just some of the very best and the brightest in the industry right now to build some very important thought leadership surrounding the state of entertainment retail technology and just so much more. This is something you're not gonna wanna miss. So go ahead and tune in. Join us now. We're about to introduce panelists here. We're going to take you through their name title, what they do in their industry, as well as their company, just what they're going to lend to this conversation, so we'll go ahead and start right here. Hi, Gabby. I'm Michael Platt with Centennial Real Estate. I'm a senior vice president of mixed use development. Happy to be here. Thank you very much for including me. I'm glad to be part of this great panel. Some great friends and collaborators over the years, so it should be a lively conversation. By way of background of an architect by training, but to have spent the latter half of my career, actually, I think now it's more than two thirds of my career on the development owner side. And really kinda working with a lot of these great entertainment concepts, trying to bring them into all of our great projects, and excited to be part of the panel. Thank you very much. Hi, Gabby. Randy Stone. Thank you for having us. Derek, I appreciate the opportunity. I'm with Omnipan architects, Randy Stone, principal there. And, I guess, I would sum up what we do, mostly it's in the private development world. We offer experiences. And I think I'm excited about talking about that from an entertainment standpoint today. So thank you. I am Robert Thompson. I'm the founder and CEO of Camp Pickle and Jaguar Belera. I suppose I'll be representing the retail and specifically the experiential retail element for this conversation today. Thanks for having us on Derek Cors. Nice to meet you, Gabby. Hi, Gabrielle. Sean Fulham with Lincoln Property Company, Senior Vice President of Retail leasing and Development here based locally in Dallas. Been with Lincoln for twenty five years, and I'm glad to be here representing a little bit of the owner's side of the equation of conversation, but also very pleased to be here with this panel. Thank you, Derek, for having Thank you all. It's wonderful to be together. Derek Ali, CEO, VCC Construction. We consider ourselves about and class builder of retail, and we'll try and bring some perspective of our experience really nationwide and working with a diverse client base across a a mix of uses. And so it'll be important to the discussion in particular on how entertainment retail fits into this this place making world we live in. So, thank you. Absolutely. Well, you know, we actually coined a term for this THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. IT'S RETAIL TAMEN. Is that correct? Okay. Perfect. WELL, THAT'S HOW WE WILL REFERORD OF THIS. COPY RID. THAT'S RIGHT. Okay. SO LET'S TOP about that current state of retail environment and just specifically an entertainment retail in the marketplace that we're going on today So let's go ahead and take a take us through the panel. What are your thoughts on just the current marketplace? I I actually think it's an exciting time in a place. I think there's a lot of new concepts coming online. Some old ones are retrenching and kinda re repositioning kinda kinda pivoting where they wanna be in the for the future. And it's a really exciting time to be a landlord to to be able to experience this from a consumer standpoint as well as to bring them into some, you know, exciting, dominant mixed use destinations. Very exciting time in the retail world. Not without its challenges, but but there's a great reward at the end end of the tunnel. So very, very exciting. Mhmm. I'd have to say when it comes to entertainment, we do a lot of master planning, site planning for mixed use projects and it's just like the reoccurring entertainment conversation is happening all the time, particularly just as of current. We're really excited about that, and and, you know, retailers I heard of a term the other day going that they're just retailers embrace change. And they always have. So the way they're presenting new products and new projects is just very exciting. Yeah. You know, I I think that we're, you know, with respect to the market and and retail, but specifically in my area of entertainment, experiential retail and F and B, you know, there is there are a lot of new brands that are coming out, lot of opportunities coming on the other side of COVID. I think we're we're, you know, we're we're excited to be back out into the world again. So gathering together socially to have experiences is important. But also more from a macro perspective, we're driving concepts like mine to to launch nationally. Or the fact that fifty percent of our population are millennials and gen z, and they demand experiences more than acquisition of assets. And so that's, you know, that's the job of folks like myself and and the great developers on this panel to find the right sites for that, and we create the moistemaking elements together. So it's a it's a it's a really good confluence of of of macro channels coming together to to bring them to life. Yeah. I think, Robert, what you said at or excuse me, Randy. Retail has gone through a lot of change on every level. Right? The retailer the restauranteur coming out of COVID, what Robert specializes in, but really since o eight, o nine, you know, the financial crisis and and the way we all had to be very fluid to adapt to the changing, you know, levels of omnichannel and and what the consumer wants to see expects to get from their experience. So, really, the entire development community has had to evolve you know, all the way through certainly what we went through in twenty. And and even though it's been three years, that seems like a really short period at this time. Right. So I think that the partnerships between, you know, VCC and and great companies like them and and certainly omni plan what you guys are doing and then the tenant. It's it's collaborative conversation for how retail has evolved, and and I'm really encouraged as much as shared as as to where we're going with it. Yeah. I think I mean, the term excitement's been used a couple times, and I couldn't agree with that more. Mhmm. Like, I Retail is is objectively in about the strongest place it's been in the last fifteen years since two thousand eight, and entertainment retail has been a big part of the narrative since then. Of really driving energy and and use and development from a retail perspective. But far and wide, I think leasing activity is at historic levels and we're seeing tenant and developer balance sheets in in in many, many cases as strong as they've been in recent history. And so it all leads to a lot of opportunity. It's also an asset class that has yielded compared to some other asset classes. So so I think it's a good time to be looking at as retail as a as a really productive use. And and I know we're all excited because it's what we live and breathe on a daily basis. Well, I was gonna add one thing Yeah. Go for it. These entertainment concepts are really exciting because they are really the anchors of these newer projects. So -- Mhmm. -- where in past we may have used a traditional department we all know the department store landscape is evolving and changing. But these entertainment concepts really provide that great place making that football that define that defining kinda element that a lot of projects need and can benefit from and really use to leverage other elements within a mixed use environment. So they are really become that twenty percent re anchor, and we're excited to have Robert and his team and some of their great concepts and others that we can leverage in REALLY KIND OF CREATE A SINERGISTIC ENVIRMENT FOR SELF TO SURVIVE AND HONSELY THRIVE. YEAH, SURVIA, AND THRIVE AS WE KNOW, I LOVE TO HEAR FROM THE DEVELOPERS PERSPECT AS WELL, IS WHAT SOME OF THE KEY CONSIDERATIONS ARE TODAY THAT ARE DRIVING DECISION FORWARD WHEN IT COMES TO Retail OR Mixed USE development. So just how are we addressing this? I think we look at is really partnering with best in class kind of retailers. As as, you know, and foremost, there's a lot of concepts out there. Obviously, some of them are evolving and and trying to refine what it is they're trying to create when you partner with someone Robert and his team, you know, you you know you're getting best in class. And that's that gives us a lot of confidence in many cases that significant investment that comes has to come to play. And you wanna make sure you're investing in the right group. Obviously, no one's got a crystal ball, but, you know, understanding there's a history and experience level and a vision for, you know, creating a a best in concept. That's really kind of high on our list to really vet through the options that are there and defining that one that we think is just right for our projects. Michael, you touched on this a little bit, we're really, it's a defining options, and creating options for consumers, because it all about goes back to the consumer. From a developer and entertainment standpoint, and I think today, more than ever before, the customer wants more options and more variety of options. So creating an environment and creating something that is a place they want to return to, a place that's going to bring them, they're going to stay for a while. We call it sticky spaces, because they think people want to be there and they want to stay. So that's that's pretty cool, you know, opportunities right now from that. And that's very current. Mhmm. Yeah. Sean? Sean? Yeah. I think that, you know, mixed use in two thousand, call it, you know, atul and really meant, okay, we're gonna put some retail at the base of a multi family project. Without a whole lot of thought to the merchandising mix of that, it was almost checking a box that really may not have needed to be there in the first place. Looking forward to what mixed use has become and what it can really mean to a project is extraordinary. I mean, we can look at examples whereby well curated retail and entertainment can come in at the right scale. And deliver premium in in multifamily rents. They lead to that leasing faster. If you've got the ability to do horizontal you know, mixed use around that. You've got an office park that can come in, and we're seeing we're seeing that we're winning at our office department level campus projects because of the well curated entertainment and and what the expectation of that employee is. So it becomes incredibly, you know, important to recruitment, retainment, of of that, you know, that customer for them to come back to our projects, but really for that daily worker as well. So we've used and probably overused live work play for a long time, but that's really what we're trying to create. Yeah. Absolutely. It's incredible how important it is for aminitization of project. Office, woman's amenities, you know, retail, retail, hospitality, and all these all these they're just thriving to have something there is a place and and keep it keep it viable. Yeah. And it it really all falls back to an ecosystem. Right? It's a true ecosystem. Mhmm. You know, like we see in nature, we need we need elements that feed off one another in a cycle. And that's what brings it to the scars. Chris, cool. Robert, to your point, and and I feel like, because of the national narrative to some degree, you know, retail became an afterthought to some of these other uses, and I'm a big believer. I know we all would be Retail's the most local of all these asset classes. You know? In multifamily, in office, you can use your local, you know, macro data points to make your investment decisions, but retail so much matters what's happening on that corner, on that block, in that community, And I think that's that's why you see great projects that sometimes don't maybe get the traction that they should because the retail was an afterthought. You know, reach tail, you gotta nail that local piece if you want people coming back more and more, and it's It is a really critical piece to making the fabric of a mixed use development work, or, you know, even if it's just a straight retail, how you mix those users together is critical. Shawn used a great word and Turation. That's we use that word as well and, you know, merchandising is very important. It's not just about doing a deal, but doing the right deal. And making sure there are synergies amongst the retail, amongst the entertainment, amongst the other uses that may be there. And that's really where you get that, you know, that that project and then really starts to sing. Well, that brings us over to our trends right now that we're seeing in the space. I mean, what are some of the trends you're seeing currently, but in terms of like retail entertainment design, and what's the importance of, you know, building a team early in the process of pre construction as well as design. Randy, would you like to take that one? Yeah. Well, it's all about the team in this environment. We have so many challenges from capital markets to construction costs, to supply chain, it's it's, you know, it's really about what your partners are. Diverse successful projects. From a design standpoint, we really think it's a trend that was beginning before the pandemic, but it's very much enhanced now is getting outside, you know, our restaurants want patios, want environments that they can get outside, from entertainment, we're seeing much more of that where they had it's not just a dark box like a department store that everything's going on in the interior. It's also, you know, putt putt or something else going on that's a family organized venue that gets on the outside as well. So, you're starting to see those trends that people want variety and they want to be out, they want to be able to get outside. And, dear? Yeah. Noelle said. I mean, you know, as a as a collective and and moving as this industry can be, and it can seem very complicated. Like, I think the fundamentals actually are quite simple. And sometimes we can over complicate and one of the points you were asking about Gabby, which is building a team early and how important pre planning and pre construction and all the thing, you know, building partnerships at the municipal levels and with your tenants and all the things that matter on the front end, that front end time is so valuable, and it's a tragedy. Honestly, how sometimes as collective teams, we just squander it Even when we do what we think's a great job, there's always an opportunity to say, man, we could've used that time, you know, better, and we try learn from that. But ultimately, this is those simple fundamentals that drive success in this industry One of one of them is that we thrive on predictability. And so I think if you're looking for why you should build a team early and why you really spend time digging into the details on the front end of a project. It's you're trying to lead yourself to a predictable outcome that you can count on and what's been painful, but about last three years as it's been about the least predictability, the least amount of predictability we've had in a long time as an industry. But, you know, that's where, you know, best in class professionals, you know, work better and and and push past that. But at the end of the day, you know, we we spend all our time in pre construction and and working with our design partners to help GET OUR CLINCE TO THE RIGHT ANSWER AND AS IMPORTANTLY A PREDICTABLE ANSWER. THE RIGHT ANSWER AND THE RIGHT ANSWER SOONER. WELL? Well, let's talk about the rule of entertainment uses in terms of a development and just the pros and cons that might come with that and integration. I'll certainly can can speak a little bit to it. You know, entertainment from the movie theater experience the 1980s and to where it is today has changed drastically. The way the American consumer wants to interact and engage and be in our changed has changed. So at the developer level, I'm listening to these tenants, and I'm listening to to what Robert telling me he's seeing in the marketplace because we're trying to put together the the right, you know, community development. What I thought about when you shared that a second ago is community doesn't realize many watching us will, but we're working on these for years before you ever have a shovel on the ground or you have crane on-site or you're you're redeveloping and old building, and and it's incredibly challenging, and time consuming, and frustrating, and and rewarding once you see it come together. So I think at the the mix level, you know, we're trying to find ways for the right users to come in and spend time at these projects. You know, we find sometimes that they're gonna come and and spend that time and not spend a dollar anywhere else. But if they feel comfortable there and they feel engaged, they feel Like, that's a, you know, a second home, an outdoor living room, something they can have an experience with. They'll come back and spend the consumer dollars that our retailers wanna see as well. So, It's a it's a really fun challenge to to come together with the entertainment groups and and try to to find out how to make them successful because we know it ultimately will make us successful. And Randy, do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah. I think it just goes back to the variety and And back to the consumer again, I'll reinforce that. I keep on thinking about the consumer, but they're just always wanting to have something to do. It's just a little bit of a hangover from the COVID. They just, they want to get out and have that kind of variety of a place to visit and spend some time with. So Well, I think I mean, sorry, Robert. I was just gonna say experience has come to identify or to define identity almost in our world today. Right? I mean, with how people share their lives on social media, what so is to, you know, to your point and And the demographic of people that are that we're all trying to attract to these centers now is it's a it's a core piece of the human element that you just you you want engaging experience, and it and it's this this asset class has a big role to play and deliver in that I think brand has got a lot to do with that as well. I mean, it's really a great opportunity to everyone kinda come underneath one umbrella of a brand of what the basis. So you say, oh, I Yeah. I've gone to the pearl. You know, everybody kind of knows that right now where no one knew knew about that about two years ago. So You have those really great opportunities to kind of come together as as one project regardless of usage and contribute. Yeah. I I I think about the socialization of them. Right? You know, we were we're referencing the sort of the darker times that we came out of, but there's still that appetite to socialize that was that was restricted for so long and so, you know, entertainment uses specifically are are having are still having a moment to a degree even though there's some negative macro conditions that are pushing down profitability and things like that. It's not inhibiting the consumer from spending and helping out top lines. Right? Mhmm. You know, at the same time we're battling the bottom lines. But, you know, it's experiences and socialization. And specifically with, again, the two cohorts you know, that that we focus on the most which are millennials and gen z, not that they're any more important than any other demographic set, but they're the most influential and they tell the other demographic that's what's socially and culturally relevant. Mhmm. So we focus on that. Well, not even the most influential I mean, I agree with your to your point there, but also their the most likely to spend on experiences just to your point. I mean, having been starved to that socialization, but recent data shows that. I mean, they're the demographics that's gonna spend the most on experiences because they wanna share share with the world. Well, you know, I wanna move this over to the current state of retail construction IN RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF CONSTRUCTION'S STATUS, BUT ALSO THE STRUCTURE REPUISING ITSELF. Derek Dickson. I'll dive in a little bit and love to hear everybody's thoughts on. But from a, you know, the state of retail can and just the retail industry. It's fundamentally balanced over over the years. You know, we were in a certainly in a state of overbuilding square foot per capita FOR MANY, MANY YEARS AND THEN WE HARD STOP WAS HIT. WHERE WE today, I think we like I was mentioning earlier, is I think in about as healthy a spot as we've seen in the last fifteen years. Project delivery has been measured. And frankly, since COVID, the more more projects HAVE TAKEN SOME TIME TO GET CAPITALIZED. IT'S BEEN IT'S NOT LIKE IT'S BEEN RAMP BUT Leasing ACTIVITIES HAPPENING SO CURRENT SPACES IS REALLY WELL LEAST. But new deliveries are just now coming. So I think looking forward, there's gonna be a ton of activity and and new development and repurposing. And into into better and more engaging retail uses and in particular entertainment retail. The repurposing piece is so critical. Obviously, we if we should care as humans and and members of our community to do the right things when it comes to sustainability and engaging and ONERING HISTORIC PLACES IN SOME CASES. AND SO AS THE WORLD CONTINUES TO MOVE MORE Urban AND DENCE, WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT HOW WE CAN UtILIZE current assets in a new way, and, obviously, that comes along with repurposing. And there's a lot of create that's where the creativity happens. It's one thing to draw a new project in a greenfield somewhere, but really to understand how a a new use might play with an existing structure within within a very dense block and and how it's gonna be you know, it's gonna affect that community not only during the construction process, but you know, throughout its life cycle as a use is critical. One thing I'd point out about the construction industry in particular to this this kinda broadly, but it certainly applies to our retail construction, is there there are some good trends, you know, certainly a work labor and workforce is is absolutely still an issue. Frankly, it's been an issue for forty years. We act like some new phenomenon we've been talking about for the last, you know, couple decades. It's been going on for a while and maintaining a consistent and sustained workforce on a job. Like, you cannot lose momentum. That is so critical. So we spend a lot of time focusing on that. Silver linings coming out of the supply chain pains that have occurred over the last three years in particular is we're having deeper, more trans parent, more real conversations further down the vendor stream and life cycle we feel like we have better touch points within the supply chain now than we ever had before. It hasn't always been the answers we want, but I really think that those lines of communication will survive this moment in time, and it'll build for a more collaborative process as we talk about supply chain and logistics I mean, this industry is all about supply chain logistics. And so if one silver lining came out of this unpredictability we've had, it's that I think we're having across upstream and downstream, we're having more real, transparent, and collaborative conversations than we've ever had. I wanna move this conversation over to the state of the capital markets right now. Just how that's impacting business and just the ability to even get concepts or projects, you know, up the ground running or even moving. No impact at all. Thank you for watching. Great. Next question. Only if you have a brand like Lincoln property company, can you say something like that? Okay. I think I think there was so much everybody wanted to say no one wanted to start. Yeah. Fair. Yeah. Well, it's been I'll say just my experience just because I'm launching, you know, a couple of new brands and you know, so we've been raising venture level capital and, you know, the markets have been very schizophrenic that they started you know, in in September and October, we saw a lot of capital flowing into deals. The the world panicked and went into its turtle shell. In November and December and and investment dollars stopped flowing. Then as we started to think about that, you know, after interest rates, made everyone afraid that we were gonna have a crash landing. Suddenly, the brilliant people that had said thirty days before, it was a crash landing, started saying it was gonna be a soft landing, And so we listened to them, even though it was a complete pivot from what they just said, and people started investing again, and then we had a bank crisis in mid February. That shut investment down again, now people here we are in April, they're investing again. For for me, you know, how it impacts me? I'm in a in an absolute lathered sprint to try to close, you know, capitalization out right now before, you know, before the mindset shuts down again and people stop stop investing. That could happen. A month from now, that can happen forty eight hours from now based on what we've seen in the last six months. Well, you know, this next question is actually for you, Robert. You know, do you ideate a new retail entertainment concept and ultimately bring it to life? What's your process there? We're reaching out to a demographic set that is as wide as any have ever seen. So we're bringing in folks that are eight years old and eighty years old. How do you create a a, you know, interior design atmosphere that speaks to both of those? And for us, ended up choosing this nineteen forties camp culture setting. You know, summer camp ish and which, you know, ultimately, is appealing to an older audience. It feels nostalgic and warm, and for a younger audience gen z, it feels kitschy. Right. But, you know, the the that's kinda how we, you know, we bring it to life optically. But you gotta think about what the market opportunity is and focus on what the what the what the the real estate profile would be and then for me, as odd as it it can sound at times, before I ever launch anything, I think about who I'm gonna sell it to in five years. So as I'm positioning it, creating the DNA and and engineering the concept itself, again, the combination of of data science and and a little bit of art. I'm thinking, you know, as I identify certain buyers, what's gonna appeal to them and where are they going to be in five years with respect to their growth? Will they have enough growth? Will will they be, you know, will they be acquiring new brands, there's a lot that goes into it. You know, why we do things like that as opposed to go out and raise money and buy existing brands? I have no idea. It's a lot harder. I think it is a lot better. Oh, for sure. I mean, there's just so many factors that go into it. And as you mentioned, I mean, I mean, you're thinking about the person in the next five years, who you're going to be selling to. So, with that in mind, you know, how do you think about drawing diverse users to your entertainment led developments. And Sean, you can also respond to this as well. I certainly want to hear more from Robert on this too, but I I think you know, with co tenancy and merchandising or something that's been around for a long time. Right? Even from the traditional power center development, which we've we certainly did plenty of in the nineties and early two thousands to the development that we're all trying to put together now that is harder, but feels more rewarding. So, you know, we're gonna have the conversation with Robert of, hey, look, who who do you not want here? And he's gonna tell me. I mean, he's gonna say, listen, I'm fine with these uses, but I would prefer you, you know, give me an exclusive on on this category. I don't need to go in and and do another pickleball concept when we've got, you know, one of the better ones right here in check. So, that conversation, you know, how his customer for that concept is gonna translate to the one that's two hundred feet away. Is really important to us, because, again, those dollars are we want them to stay in the project. We want them to stay at the intersection. We want it to stay relevant, and and it's something that we spend a lot of time working on, much less, the fact that the investment from the landlord or the tenant business is significant. We're we're all You know, I I he's got bigger partners than me, but we're all partners in this because we're we're all, you know, writing McJacks and trying to make these deals happen. Yeah. You know, it it's you know, with respect to co tenancy and how they all work together, you know, it's it's It's not as black and white as just looking at, you know, which activations. And what I mean, you know, the entertainment activations work together or are too competitive. It also comes down to the brand DNA. Right? Like, you know, how can you curate even if there's some commonality between the brands, right, and how they activate, How can you curate brands that sort of share the same authenticity and appeal to the consumer in a way that is warm and bring them back here up here. And they feel is part of their lifestyle. Right? You know, especially millennials and gen z, they they want to they wanna define themselves by the brands that they allow to orbit them -- Mhmm. -- and that they speak to and communicate with and speak about that's part of their identity. And so when you guys can put together centers that have multiple of these brands that are, you know, that are in their lifestyle, orbit, and they're proud of. Right? For us if if, you know and I guess everybody, all all boat spreads with the high tide. Yeah. If you're bringing in, you know, great experiences, you're gonna bring in great consumers. No. There's a there's a whole another facet of what's going on in our economy right now that that I'd like to highlight, which is if the capital market market's impact on your your partners and vendors and in particular the contractors in the space, Certainly, we're all affected by delay in project starts, and that may lead us to situations where where you're having a balance overhead and and you're planning on things to start and they start six months later. There's there's repercussions to that that can be negative. In some cases, they're positive because it allows you to free up more resources for that product. Like, I couldn't have done it six months ago, but now we have the the right team for it. So It's not always a negative, but we're really, really focused on diligent prequalification of our trade partners and working together as partnerships. We want them to be successful. We have to create as much success downstream if we if we want it to roll upstream as well to us and to to our client developers And so but prequalification, then what's happening with people's cash flow? And if somebody's paying payroll through lines of credit and their interest rates are are floating and moving, all so there there's a real business focus not just on whether projects are getting debt and equity, but how we're all running our businesses in real time. And you wanna surround yourself around people that have, you know, good fundamental sound business models because One thing that I talked about predictability earlier and how important predictability is, what can be crushing to a project is truly. If there's a if any anybody at any level trips up and fails, it it affects us all. And so we really it's all about locking arms and making sure you're you're working with a team that has that viability to push push to the next stage. And further to that point, you know, if you guys are if you guys are struggling to find the right lenders, right? And then we have a TA agreement where, you know, we're supposed to, you know, we we manage our cash flow based on certain payouts. But you guys are working with a lender that says, I'll loan you the money. I'm I'm gonna kill you on the interest rate. Mhmm. And I'm only gonna pay every sixty days. That hurts the tenants that are doing the development that hurts the contractors that need to get paid. It all flows down the screen that's interconnected. So capital markets, there's there's no end to to to the connectivity there. I think some of what we're seeing, though, which will be really interesting is and we've all touched on it. Right? These projects take a long time. So I'm not looking to come out of the ground on several projects until they get in next year, and certainly my expectation is that things are gonna feel a lot different and be better. We've got a fed that's gonna be reactive and do some things. We've got an election next year that we're gonna have to get through. I mean, they're they're there are some hurdles that are gonna be choppy. And so I I think it's it's interesting for us out trying to put our projects together on on the timing of those and talking to Eric about pricing and and, you know, firms like Omni Plan are with us from day one. So it's we've got some things working for us, and the other from a fundamental standpoint is retail is healthier than a lot of the other categories, we just don't get credit for it. So we're excited about the fact that, you know, yield and where A retail gets some underwriting at this point, the capital markets, and some of our capital partners that are coming back to it, institutional capital is coming back to retail. I think, you know, it's a tough time with the flight to quality for office and what we're gonna see in the office market to be in that category. Mhmm. I think the the things that we've had to do since two thousand ten to be able to get our projects off the ground, have have somewhat stabilized us for the future, and whereas of the category is gonna be a real challenge. Yeah, we see that a lot we were talking about that last week. We were kind of joking around that we had two or three different conversations during the week about this is not penciling. And we're like, someone's got to get a different pencil. This is not, this is killing us here, but I think you've got owners that are having to deal with rising interest rates and capital markets freezing up, and they've got values coming down, and rents are coming, you know, it's just a, it's kind of like a perfect storm right now. I think caution and is really the most prevalent, you know, conversation, but there's optimism about what's going to happen in the future as well. CAution and optimism, and I don't think anybody has any doubt that if you do have the ability to execute in this environment. There's there's a ton of opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. So if you can't figure out how to get that secret sauce and a lot of it's done with like, we were talking about earlier public interest and how, you know, there's I've I've I've always been impressed with how, you know, the the right teams, with the with the right focus, you know, use innovation and figure it out at the end of the day. So -- Right. But great point. It's a different story in every market, you know. It's we do a lot of multifamily, in the multifamily market, This compression kind of got rid of the it kinda hurt the merchant builders, but the long term guys, they're still moving ahead with us. And, you know, so it's it's it's really it's really where you're coming from on different projects and If you feel really convicted about NOI growth, you can you can do almost anything now. Right? I mean, you know, to some degree. But Well, let's talk a little bit about how you balance landlord and tenant interests and just wear their synergies to be had there, as well as just opportunities to work as better partners. Michael, would you like to take that one? Sure. I mean, I think honestly, the best success the best and most successful projects are the ones where those those interests are uniquely aligned. Right? I mean, we we perhaps come at things from different perspectives. But in the end, a a tenant needs a a a vibrant project around them in order for a vibrant project to be there for a developer, we've got to have great tenancy and great merchandising and a great curated environment. Now sometimes the way we get there is a little bit different. But, you know, I think bringing best in class tenants to a part to a project is very key for us. Think tenants that we think will be here for the long term that have a vision that that we share in terms of what it is they expect from a customer experience. We like that customer experience within the tenant's space to align with the customer experience. We expect and and, you know, in in the in the areas of the project that we control. And where we have that, we've got like minded partners. We tend to find a way to bridge any gaps and and, you know, make things work. So that's a very high level answer, but I think there's, you know, there's a lot we can we can go granular on that forever. But I think like minded tenants with kind of a vision that echoes our own is is really where we wanna start. You know, it's gotta be a true partnership, but it may come in the form of, you know, what I refer to as quasi debt partnership. Right? As opposed to equity partnership because, you know, an an entertainment or an entertainment project takes so much more development CapEx to bring to life than does a traditional restaurant. So there has to be a there there's a meaningful t t a component associated with those deals. You know, landlords, you know, feel all in you know, on on on these types of projects because they are anchors. Of course, the tenant feels all in because we're bringing so much CapEx to each one of these. It's a good place for both of us to be, right, is feeling exposed at the same time. It can create real it it can create strong partnerships. But, you know, the the it's If it's viewed differently from the old landlord tenant lens, it can get out of whack and it can and everybody can lose You know, I think you both tenant and landlord have to be patient with one another during that during good and bad times. Because to the extent that you you do make a decision to move on from a tenant. You have downtime. You're still gonna have to repur repurpose my capital. And towards bringing a new tenant in, maybe, you know, maybe you have some security that you go after about whether how long it takes to get there and and what's actually there when you get there after so much time has passed is an open topic. Right? So at the end of the day, you know, both landlord and tenant have to make high quality decisions that they wanna be partners. These it can't be as transactional as it used to be. Gotta be equity and partnership. When I say equity, I mean, sort of partnership equity in the form of quasi debt. Mhmm. That's great. Yeah. On the development and leasing side, I mean, all we do is problem solve. It's it's a tenant coming to us and saying, I'm almost there, but I just can't make this piece of the deal work, and I mean, we will work really hard to find a way to make that work, provided it's the tenant that we want, and so typically it is. Right? And so it's It's fun. I mean, it's it's a challenge, but to sit there and try to to ascertain that that is important for my development, the consumers we wanna bring, and the co tenants that we wanna bring along with it. You know, it's worth the effort. I think the other thing that that we work a lot on, and we're seeing more of this is, you know, we do so much horizontal misuse development. So The retail group at Lincoln is leading, you know, retail driven mixed use in a way that's trying to activate land planning. So we're coming in and we're saying, like, hey, this project needs that tenant. We need Robert to be a part of this. And for that, we're willing to make that that stretch because it's the hundred and fifty thousand square foot build to suits in it, you know, it's coming in that are are, again, I mentioned the flight to quality. That's where these tenants wanna be. Mhmm. Some of these you know, not obsolete, but challenged suburban office towers. I mean, I I think we're we're the benefit of that in some of our larger scale, you know, horizontal makes use development. So we love to come in and and find that right tenant that's gonna again go talk about the tenants we're trying to serve. We're trying to serve Robert and the retail tenant and the office tenant and the multifamily tenant. Yeah. It's multifaceted. Well, with the rapid advancement of technology we're seeing, how can entertainment retailers what are some best practices to stay ahead of the curve in order to provide consumers, you know, with these, this new tech the innovative and also immersive experiences. Like, how can you stay ahead? Robert, that's all you, buddy. Tell us over here. Teach us. All the headches. Show us the way. Yeah. Look, we're, you know, we're there there are some technologies to innovate around F and B, of course, and and and ways to manage labor better But for for us, the way that we we think about things is, you know, there there was, you know, millennials changed the landscape of experiential F and B over a decade ago. And Jinzy is changing it. Now they're they're making their imprint. One of the things they want is they want DIY service. Alright. What I mean by that is so for us, this is something that it can sound nuts for a concept model that is so dependent on beverage sales. We're eliminating bars. And what we're doing is we're going to RFID chips where you walk in. You you you get ID. You scan your credit card, we give you an RFID card go to a draft wall, and we have forty craft beers on top, sixteen higher end wines by the glass and ten craft cocktails. These things all happen, and we charge you by the ounce, you know, that that is connected to your RFID card. And then when you're done, you get up and walk out the door. You don't have to wait for a waiter to, you know, flag down a waiter, when you wanna know the drink, you can go get one. If you wanna go get three ounces of a glass of wine, and you wanna do that four times so that you can have a variety as opposed to ordering six. This is what I mean by do it yourself, service, and experiences. Gen z demands tech enabled DIY approaches like that. And we're trying very hard to listen. So there's a lot of the ways that that that groups can edit with technology for we think. This is a really important one. I think you're gonna see more and more of it. It'll just, you know, it'll the ones that are successful with are the ones that will figure out how to bring it to life the right way, get the right optics around it, make sure that there's still a lot of customer service associated with do it yourself service. Yeah. That's a tricky balance. Yeah. That is for sure. Is one thing I I I'd like to just because I a hundred percent agree and and tech innovation allows, you know, concepts to do so much more with their consumer. And at the same time, It's you you can get too it's easy to get too cute. Right? We've been talking a lot about place making and this pressure to deliver new and excite, like, what people really care about also fun like, don't forget about the fundamentals. This is something I keep saying. Make sure the bathrooms are in the right place. The food has to be good, you know. It doesn't matter if somebody, you know, the the the food has to be, you know, compelling. They wanna feel safe and and warm. And so, like, there's a lot of lessons that we've learned over the years that don't let I I I just say don't let the banner of innovation and aggressively trying to be the newest hottest thing undermine, you know, the commitment those to those fundamentals. Exactly. And that's a little bit too inside baseball for me to talk about in in this group, but it's something that we talk about on a daily basis in the industry rank, which is that the the fundamental to exist. At the end of the day, what we do is still about opening a door and smiling and saying things are coming in. Mhmm. That's where it starts. Yeah. I'll just tell you. Skip on that part and none of the other part matters. AirPoint. Absolutely. Well, Robert, this also will go to you because this is something I'm really intrigued by. I mean, we're talking a lot about Gen Z, the up and coming innovations here, what role should social media and influence our marketing in this term we're hearing a lot more of these days, you know, play into the marketing strategies of entertainment retailers specifically? Yeah. Look, we we're we're all in on that topic. We we a hundred percent of our of our marketing budgets are are dedicated to social media, to to influence our marketing, and to our PR component because then we can integrate our PR into our social media. Right? Which in some ways is the only reason we do the PR. No. Few people read the actual publications where they're where they're originally published? You grab them off of somebody else's social media channel and then end up on that website. Right? So -- Mhmm. -- so we push our PR so that we can put it, and other people can put it on their channels So it it you know, that's become the ecosystem for marketing that we're a hundred percent dedicated to. I think for the developers and the landlords of the world, you know, the opportunity is is even it is is there to sort of partner in a way with with their tenants that do it. Right? Is is is brilliant as some of the developers I've spent time with. I've never found one that is really you know, after you're up and activating, you're just doing the nuts and bolts of marketing and running your project for decades. Mhmm. I haven't ever seen a marketing program that works really well where people are saying, I'm gonna go to this retail tenant because the marketing was so great by the landlord. Right? Maybe landlords should even stop thinking that way. Right? And they're just thinking about how we can just work together, you know, through tenant channels, right, to promote the development as well. As a whole. Alright. Well, this next question kind of, we'll take it a little bit back to what we were talking about earlier. How do developers of think about creating that flexibility needed to reduce cost. We were speaking earlier when it comes to replacing a tenant, when it should come to that. So what should we think about in terms of creating flexibility? I think for us, it's a it's a careful balance between creating that curated environment for the Gen one user versus and having something that's viable for a potential Gen two returned. And so that answer is not always the same or, you know, how you how you sort of balance that metric. But, you know, obviously, we want Robert and his team to create that unique experience, and that sometimes means a unique and unique infrastructure to do so. But at the same time, having being mindful of what might come down the road, how that space might be used. You know, these shopping centers that in where the space that we play in have been around for fifty or sixty years in many cases and have have had multiple tenants backfill. I think now we're seeing a little more customization, a little bit more curation of that that environment, and it's making unique challenges, but I think it's also creates some unique opportunities that we're we're trying to embrace. So it truly is a balance between creating that first gen space that is dynamic and vibrant and special, but at the same time allows for some flexibility and some curation down the road that may be different than its intended purpose on day one. Mhmm. For sure. From a design and construction standpoint, I think we've done the repurposing of a department store in every way possible. And every one of them has a different challenge, because you are taking a different structure. Florida floor heights are not right. The column spacing's not right. But there's a way to get around the really messy stuff projects, but often they're they're viable and there's good reason behind -- Yep. -- bringing in some really cool environments that you're repositioning half of them all, taking down two department stores, bringing in multifamily. You've got some creative office space, you've got some entertainment, a lot of food and beverage, and a green space. I think one thing we haven't touched on is really how these green spaces and how getting outdoors has really become critical to some of these larger developments, but, yeah, that's always a challenge. We've done lots of great stuff. We've got great partners, whether it's VCC, anomaly plan, and any sort of the partners we use, but we've raised roofs on buildings. We've added mezzanines into buildings. We're added experts, we've blown out walls. We've you know, unfortunately, the built environment is flexible. It all comes with dollar signs associated with it to make those changes, but There's a lot of creative talent here on the sofa and and and in the business. And honestly, there's if there's an appetite to do something, there's always a solution. And that's kind of what makes it makes it fun. Yeah. You is it a sickness or a calling? No comments sometimes. Same thing. Sometimes, the same things. Yeah. I'd really agree. I I think the repurposing is is a challenge always. It's it's expensive. It's necessary. So you've gotta bring the part together to solve it, I'd say we lean heavily on our design partners and our general contractors at VCC. I mean, we they do it more than we do. They've done it for more clients than we have. So we're trying to listen wherever possible to say you might wanna do some things that that are forward thinking that I'm sure you can speak to. I think there's you know, this comes back. It ties into the conversation we're having earlier about how a tenant and landlord interest can really be better aligned and how you work on those partnerships, we find ourselves on both sides of that coin often we're delivering shelf space on behind on behalf of a landlord. And we're representing tenant and to finish out interest and and making sure that, you know, really our jobs to provide transparency to both sides so they they know what kind of deal they're cutting. The I I'm we're we're really encouraged by the flexibility that different interests are coming to these conversations with. I mean, there there used to be a world where for developers, they cared about lease term and credit, like Robert was mentioning earlier. And from a tenant perspective, it was like, give me my prototype, and there's no it's nonnegotiable. I gotta have what I want, and that's the way I'm gonna get it. And And those that's not the way people are operating. And so we are encouraged by, you know, I think tenants are more flexible on on things that in a previous life would have been non negotiable. They're not more flexible with their prototypes because they know they have to be, because ultimately, everybody's just trying to back into the right rent and and a win win scenario for everybody. Yeah. That's a great point. Flexibility that exists in today's market is very different than it was just a few years ago and the willingness to kinda work with, you know, kind of a unique space. I think actually ends up in a pretty compelling solution at the end of the day. You don't have that sort of anywhere USA solution. You've got things that are more curated and ends up with, in many cases, a more compelling solution at the end of the day. So Great. But you're right. The the willingness to flex a little bit from that prototype or those rigid standards is something that is a little bit newer in the marketplace. It's also sustainability. It's just it's just a better practice -- Mhmm. -- to take an existing structure and do something with it, kinda deal with what you have, and not just tear a building down and put a new building up right in its place. You know, it just makes a lot more sense. There are a lot of different reasons. Now, there are things that you don't wanna do, when you go through that, and you gotta really dig in hard to find those kind of opportunities. But we just have to look at it more practical. And and and I wish I wish developers had it themselves on the back more when they repurpose. Existing spaces because it is a better ecological decision to make, which will appeal to modern generation. Yes. They will vote with their wallets -- Yep. -- with brands and locations, developers, and such with that, you know, that that have best practices. Absolutely. Well, that wraps up the conversation for today. So thank you, gentlemen, for being on this panel today to talk about the current state of retail attainment, we learned a lot. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Thank you all. Absolutely. Thanks, everyone. Of course. And as always, if you'd like to learn more, please visit v c c u s a dot com, and check out their podcast. I've been your host Gabrielle. Thanks for tuning in.