Hello, everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of Ideal Conditions, the podcast where we talk about indoor climate management and remediation. My name is Diana Talbot, director of marketing at Polygon, where we're helping clients create and maintain indoor conditions for their buildings before and after construction. Today on the show, we're going to talk moisture mitigation for mass timber. Joining me is Ryan Cragan, director of client development at Polygon. Ryan's been in the industry for eleven years, helping project managers and contractors control moisture on job sites, and more specifically with their con construction materials, like con concrete, drywall, and most recently, mass timber. Hi, Ryan. Thanks for joining me. Happy to be here. So it's no surprise to our audience to hear that mass timber construction is increasing in the number of jobs and the scale of projects. Thanks to technology, high rise mass construction is now possible, and there are jobs with six, ten, even twenty stories high. Ten years ago, it was kind of a niche market, and now we're starting to see it go mainstream. So in your words or in your perspective, why do you think it's becoming such an attractive option? Very good question. So mainly the low carbon material, nearly all general contractors, if not all, are focused on reducing emissions throughout the building life cycle. Many of us have seen the impact that construction activity has, and they're trying to reduce it. So material choices are a big component. So not only the general contractor, but their clients, can control it, not, you know, through their pocketbook and through the building, construction process. Wood is a much more eco friendly option. It's also aesthetic, strong, and versatile, so that it's great option for beautiful architecture. So what that supports is that biophilic design and timber built architecture boosts employees' morale, productivity, and a sense of wellness. It's it's really cool alternative to the traditional, steel and concrete makeup. Yeah. I have to agree that, mass timber projects are beautiful. But like any construction project, moisture management is a factor in quality and schedule. In terms of, mass timber projects, how is, moisture management different from other building materials? So that's a really good question. And it's a a little bit convoluted because there's different, pipes of of timber construction. But if you were to generalize it, wood naturally holds moisture. So it's it's a it was a living being and it's organic material. So even when a sealer is applied, different material types have different exposures or different resiliencies to moisture. And what that means is that the manufacturer, through their own due diligence and their own support, drives it to specification, but then that material picks up moisture, in the lumber yard, in the, through transit on-site. Some of that material is so large, it can't be stored indoors and it can't be covered effectively, etcetera. So, what this is called is is wetting. And in most cases, timber will contain an unacceptable level of moisture, during the installation phase. More importantly, as that building becomes enclosed, that moisture can cause a problem as it travels, you know, out of that mass timber. So mass timber products like CLT, DLT dry out slower than traditional, timber products. And that's where we're seeing a lot of, issues early on with the timber construction in CLT. So if you're a new contractor to building mass timber, you may not have the knowledge, that specific to something like a, a polygon can provide when controlling moisture and temperature during construction. So they need to dry it out to specification at a slower rate to avoid issues like checking, issues that result around mold and sagging. So the larger the building, the longer the project and the more these materials might, be at risk, to the environment. So in other words, as these buildings increase in height and, width, they're they're exposed to elements more and more before they can be enclosed. Mhmm. So, the the larger the building, the larger the project, the greater potential of risk Yeah. Especially with mass timber? Okay. Yeah. Cool. So, in your experience with working with people on mass timber projects, what are the things that you're consulting or advising people on doing when it comes to moisture management for for what Yeah. So what's really interesting about mass timber is such a new market, and it's growing exponentially throughout the United States, is that maybe contractors are experiencing, issues that they've never experienced elsewhere. So things like checking, mold, mildew, size and fit issues, corrosion in metal surfaces like the fasteners. They're all experiencing issues around temperature and humidity during the construction process. So the drying process for wood, for instance, needs to follow, the proper guidelines from the manufacturer and, all parties involved to minimize the extent of of checking while commissioning the building, for example. Or in other words, they need to provide the proper ventilation, environmental conditions to remove or, reduce the, issues around, sagging size, fish fit fit issues, mold, etcetera. So, let's, let's think about it a different way. Relative humidity is a function of temperature and the available water. So when we talk about climate control during construction, we're worried about introducing too much of one or the other or removing one or the other too quickly since they're a component of of each other. So Mhmm. High air will will quickly suck out water in in materials like wood, concrete, materials that hold a lot of that that water. So rapid drying or rapid heating or adding too much humidification, can cause, stresses in the wood, for instance. It can cause, metal surfaces to corrode. It can cause, higher, moisture contents surrounding that that wood, that organic material, which can crop, you know, cause mold. So certainly that. So how is moisture content, relative humidity, and all these conditions, monitored now? What are the options for people to know what's happening and if they're doing it at the right rate? That's that's a really good point. So after the building's in enclosed and in some cases, during transport, before the building's enclosed, general contractors, the owners, they want, monitoring of that mass timber because there's a lot of risk involved with that, with that material. And so, traditionally, there's, you know, folks within that project level that are walking around, are probing that wood, and it's opening up them to human error. It's also a little bit labor intensive. And there's issues surrounding, you know, weekends and holidays and, how it's compiled and analyzed. So it's much more of a reactive, monitoring. What's cool about our industry is the remote monitoring space is expanding And Polygon has a unique, solution to this where it brings all the stakeholders under a single pane of glass, and it provides proactive remote monitoring for temperature and humidity, not only in the space, which is equally as important as the timber itself. And that's done, twenty four seven, based on what the stakeholders want. If it's during cons I'm sorry, if it's during transport, for instance, if it's, at the project site before it's installed, before it's enclosed, remote monitoring gives you that eye in the sky twenty four seven to measure, like like we talked about the indoor air, but also wood moisture content. And that helps to potentially feed back to a climate control system to, slowly, bring up temperature, slowly remove moisture, maybe add moisture in some cases. Yeah. Okay. So so they have options for manual readings or continuous readings. There's pros and cons of both. If if Polygon's taking on a more remote continuous monitoring approach, could you describe how Polygon might, handle a job that is looking to manage their their timber moisture? Yeah. What what's really cool is we, work and partner early in the process to review key building factors like the location, the volume of the building. So we're talking about, hey. Is this a single story long building? Is it a multi story high rise? You're doing some really cool things that allow us to, be proactive in the design side. So schedule's important as well. Are we going to be, working in months that are traditionally drier, traditionally wetter than other months throughout the year, depending on the location. So what we'd wanna do is install a, set of sensors early to get a baseline for, how the timber's, doing in the sense of the moisture level and where it needs to go. We'll we might connect those sensors to directly to a climate control system, like a dehumidifier or potentially humidifier, to slowly control the space at the rate necessary to protect the material and bring it down to acceptable moisture content levels. What's nice about that is this way we're only running the equipment and when it's needed and we're not wasting energy. For instance, when everybody goes home at the end of the day, as the building becomes more insulated, it travels throughout its construction process. The climate control system that may be controlling the environment before the permanent systems up and running doesn't need to stay on. And or it doesn't need to run. It it can be all controlled based on the demand of the space. So, you know, as soon as that building cracks open in the morning at six AM and the trades start coming in, those doors opening and closing, people are moving about. It's you know, they're generating energy. They're also bringing in uncontrolled outside air, and that system will turn back on, slowly controlling the environment so that we don't affect the mass timber itself. That makes sense. So so the the system is, adapting to the changing needs of the of the project. And that's probably that's true with any kind of material that we are installing. It's just not mass timber. It's just that mass timber has this added component of that holding so much moisture as well. So I imagine, that it's more than just the project managers or superintendents that might wanna know that this material is being dried at the proper rate to the right spec. Can you describe, or can you share with us some of the other people that might want to observe or see or verify that this information that this this job is being conducted the right way? Yeah. What's really cool about mass timber is the owners, the architects, and trades. Everybody has a stake in the beautification of this project. So there's a lot of people that want to they want visibility. They're they want success of this project. It's a new industry. They wanna show, hey, we can do this. This pencils out. This this material, this timber this timber works. Right? So you're seeing a lot of people that want that proactive, measurement. They want to see that conditions are being maintained. They also care about other things like indoor air quality, for instance. They wanna make sure the environment in which they're producing this beautiful building is safe for the for everybody that's working in there. So there's concerns with with different, maybe different nuances of the project. Like, again, leak detection is another thing that people care about because we don't want water, just sitting willy nilly on the mass timber. We wanna protect it. We wanna make sure that that water is removed if there is water and that we're not we're mitigating any sort of potential water damage. So Yeah. That's that's a great point, Brian. Can you actually dive a little bit deeper into that? If there was a leak, what what would happen? And how would somebody know that there's a leak using this system? Yeah. The you know, let's let's start with the potential ramification of the leak. So there's different way that mass timber buildings are constructed. Some are constructed with traditional means like steel and concrete. Some, for instance, will pour a concrete topper over the mass timber. Because if you think of mass timber like a a giant Lego set, what's really interesting and also scary is that if there is a leak, that moisture tends to start at the top and migrate its way to the bottom. Right? It passes through the least resistance. So if you don't have proactive leak detection, if you if you can't identify alarm and let the stakeholders know that, hey. We've got, we've got a loss in flow or we've got too much flow or we've got, a leak in this critical area or we've got a perimeter leak, then that moisture will get into places that it shouldn't be, and it's gonna be very difficult to remove it. Lost. And, I mean, nobody wants a leak, but, how how quickly, if there was a leak, does the system, provide information? Do like, is you see it in the data, But if there's a leak, what how how what's that experience like for our customers? It's it's almost, instantaneous. So in some of the monitoring devices that we offer, they can get an alarm to their phone, to an email, and all parties will will get that alarm. And they'll have to actually sign off through the through the website, through the dashboard that, you know, this has been remediated. If there's climate control equipment already there, that can be deployed immediately to help mitigate some of those effects as well. Very cool. So, definitely, implications to the, potential liability or cost, that damage could incur, but also can protect, people's schedules Yep. The project schedules. Absolutely. So that's really great. Thank you. So thank you so much for describing that. We only have a couple more minutes here. So, before we leave, maybe you could tell us a little bit about if listeners want to explore how to better control their mass timber projects and the environment and the moisture of their mass timber, what what should our listeners do? Well, there's a lot of resources out there. The industry is still learning as they go. But I recommend engaging someone like a Polygon as soon as possible in the design side so that we can help, lend our expertise in moisture mitigation for mass timber. So that to your point is is more than just monitoring. It's more than just temporary climate control. It's more than leak detection. It's more than indoor air quality. It's a comprehensive solution that provides visibility to the entire project team, twenty four seven three sixty five, which gives everybody that little peace of mind, and insurance factor to mitigating risk. Yeah. Thank you so much, Ryan. That's great. Thanks for joining us. I'm sure we'll have you back. Listeners, if you want to learn more about how to monitor moisture in your mass timber projects, please join us at polygon group dot u s. And if you wanna reach out to Ryan, you can catch him on LinkedIn. Thanks so much for joining us. Have a great day, and stay dry, everybody. Thanks for having me. Bye bye. Bye.
