An Energy-Efficient Building Will Help Companies Earn Some Major Tax Incentives

This is this is straight straight straight out of Crumpton with your host, Greg Crumpton. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of straight out of Crumpton. I'm Gabby Barr, and I'm joined by mister Greg Crumpton. Greg, how are you today? I am doing great, Gabby. I'm a little bit scattered, smothered, and covered, like, like a waffle house hash brown this morning. You had travel issues. Apparently, I've got computer issues on a brain issue, but We are finally, set and looking forward to a great show today. We've got a a really cool lady who's joining us to talk about some neat stuff as well as some industry stuff. So I'm looking forward to it. Me too. Well, today, I want to welcome Abby Massey. She is the director of tax incentives at Calvetti Ferguson. Abby, how are you doing today? I'm doing great, Gabby. Thanks for asking. I'm excited to be here. Well, Abby, after all of the jockeying around we did this morning to pull this off, it's a good thing to finally get going. Great to talk to you. I've been watching you on the online for a while and learning a little bit about what you're doing. I saw you on Tony Mormino show with, talking about the tax incentives one seventy nine d. I think it's the proper vernacular for that. Yeah. Looking forward to learning a little bit and just kind of how it's interesting how how has entered into the HVAC world and the real estate world, which is the two areas that I've spent the bulk of my life in. So tell us a little bit you, and then we'll kinda figure out where to go from there. Sure. Absolutely. And thanks, Greg. I'm excited to be here. So I am an engineer by background. I'm a professional engineer. I started my career doing traditional building design. I did that for about seven years. And then actually got kind of recruited into the tax incentives world. The reason being is I specialize in tax incentives that are very technical in nature that involve real estate and energy efficiency. So I've been doing that now for about eight years. Like I said, like Gabby said, I am the director of our incentive practice at Calvedi Ferguson. And my specialty is the section one seven ninety energy efficient commercial buildings deduction. Which I have been doing, since I have started in the tax consulting world. Well, because I'm old, I'm always skeptical of things in general, but -- Okay. Sure. -- when so I've been around a long time, and I've seen a lot of evolutions, tax incentive, energy upgrade opportunities. And quite honestly, Abby, I've never historically they haven't had as much impact as I think people wanted them to have. It seems like what is happening now has a little more substance on the bone is is real. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about what was and and and some of the over legacy programs versus what's going on now? Because I think that that I I don't think I'm the only skeptic. Sure. And it's probably here day to day in real life, but us a little bit about that difference and what has changed. Absolutely. So the program originally was enacted in the Energy Policy Act of two thousand and five. So it's been around for a while, but it wasn't made permanent until twenty twenty. Before the option you could receive for your energy efficient upgrades were up to a dollar eighty per square foot. It's enough to make a difference for some companies but I would say there's still some, to your point, skeptics for adopting this program, maybe based on just the value that they were able to receive for the time it took to identify projects and and ask their clients to pursue these. But now, the inflation reduction act that was passed last year has majorly enhanced this program. So as a part of that change, the value of the deduction went way up. So now there is a bonus credit avail or bonus deduction, excuse me, available up to five dollars per square foot. So that's that's almost three times as as much as it was originally. That's that's enough that matters. Exactly. This has really caught the attention of a lot of folks. There were a lot of other changes implemented as well. Originally, the deduction on a building could only be allocated once. So essentially, once the dollar eighty per square foot was gone. It was gone for good. Now they have a reset period. So if you're doing continual building upgrades on a facility, this deduction will now reset and you can claim that deduction again. So that's another huge value add to this incentive. A third that's worth mentioning is originally for designers or the folks who are working on these government owned projects. That was the only entity that could allocate a state or local federal government entity. The inflation reduction act has now expanded that to nonprofits. So non profit entities can now allocate this deduction to their designers as well, which allows for designers to capture a lot more projects if they have focus in that nonprofit industry? Well, I think that all of those, especially, I mean, the nonprofit's good because they're non profit, you know. So the the the more that they can help themselves, that that's good. I think that, you know, what what you have described I would think would be appealing long term because of the continual nature and the reset period. That's nice. Yep. What my my thought process here would be, how do you go about the so we talk about people and how weird people are all the time. Because I'm scared. So it's kind of a natural play. But how are you able or or what is your mission and how do you present this of people, and how do you, how do you open up what's available to people? How do you, how do you, I don't want to say sell it, but how do you, how do you, you know, create the bugs around it. What what's your tactic? Sure. So a lot of what I do is education and awareness because this program was just made permanent you know, a few years back. And with this new change, it's actually now just getting on the radar of some folks who actually qualify. So part of what I do is a lot of education and awareness just to let folks know how this program works and how they qualify. I think a lot of people start to learn about it and think this is way complicated and not something that's really worth our time. My job is to help them understand that it's not as complicated as it seems and that there's firms like mine who can help them navigate all the way through the process us very seamlessly. So my goal is to make sure that very little time is spent on my client's side and that we take on the burden of the work to help them achieve these deductions. I also, I graduated, in a in a recession. So when I started at the architecture firm that I for originally, it was really tough. I saw how hard it was on design companies. And so if I can help facilitate these deductions so that firms can keep their doors open during times like a recession. I that matters a lot to me because I experienced it myself and I it's an industry I'm very passionate about. Well, I think that it is worth so much. You know, it's hard it's hard to sell. Something that you've never been a customer of or had a need for. You know, it's like, I don't know. I think about somebody selling farm equipment that graduate with a communications degree. You know? For sure. If you've never, you know, understood crops and and, you know, farming or or whatever you're gonna do with the tractor. You know, it's hard to it's hard to put yourself in the shoes of the consumer. And not always go back to this thing when I bought a car one time, the guy was telling me how great the rear entertainment system was. I don't have kids, so I don't really care about the rear entertainment system. And nobody rides back there except my in laws and you know, hell, they can't hear anyway. So, you know, I had, I I guess, I used it as a teaching moment to this youngster, and I said, you know, That's a feature. That's not a benefit because -- Right. -- if I had kids, you know, maybe they wanna look at, you know, some cartoon or whatever video on the head headrest, but I don't I don't that's not a benefit. And I think that for a lot of people who haven't been through what you've been through on the design side, and understanding all the for lack of a butter word crap you have to go through to get a program approved and, you know, designed around all the boxes checked, you know, it's difficult to sell it. So I I really appreciate the fact that you're able to educate from history, you know, from having done it. Yep. I I think that a lot of people enjoy being educated before they buy versus being sold, you know? Like, you you probably if you're gonna buy a car or a tractor, as I used while ago, Most people have done their homework fairly well. They know what they need. So selling somebody I don't know. May I I I'm not sure if that's a generational thing or where we're at with technology or a combination, but most people know pretty well what they need before they go looking for it. You know, you're just probably narrowing it down. And I would think it it your firm had the history with the tax code, you understanding how to and and, you know, apply it. I would think that'd be a natural a natural thing for somebody to say yes to because nobody wants to go learn something that they have no idea about, you know. Right. Right. Absolutely. And I mean, it's it's a tough and complicated program. I don't know if you've ever tried to read the tax code, but it certainly makes everything more located. Well, I think it was written so that people like me couldn't read it, or at least understand it. You know, it's like reading like, like, you feel like you had a little bit of a brain burned down, like you read something, and you're like, I don't even know what that just said. Right. Oh, and and, you know, a lot of government documents are that way. Yep. The challenge with the government is if you try to talk to somebody there that is supposed to know something today, and you talk to somebody else tomorrow, you're gonna get a different story. So Yeah. Absolutely. Some someone like you who has studied it and understands the program would be a godsend to to somebody trying to implement the program. So Absolutely. And you know what I think is really important is that industry experience these programs are becoming more and more technical. I mean, they are based out of technical codes like ASHRA ninety point one. Right. Somebody who has industry experience who has worked with the types of companies that you're helping qualify, who has navigated a a construction or design project, in its entirety understands better how these projects fit in and qualify. So I think as these programs expand to become more technical and have more technical requirements. That industry experience is going to become a key factor in a consulting firm. But who are who are your typical customer? Like, if you had to define it, are are they -- Sure. -- rehab companies, are they commercial real estate? Kinda, what what is your focus with this tax incentive? I work with a lot of different folks. Sometimes direct directly with the building owners, who may be constructed or renovated a project. We'll go direct with them. I work with a lot of architect, and engineer firms as well as contractors who do work like design assist or design build work. That's probably the bulk of my client base. Are these these folks who qualify from the designer realm, but I also partner with commercial real estate companies, even some commercial real estate lenders who want to provide an extra service, to show their clients that they care. So I can come in and say help them with these deductions, as a referral almost from these commercial real estate or lenders. So, let's talk about commercial real estate. Sure. That, you know, every so my world, we we sell into the commercial real estate world a lot. Commercial office -- Sure. -- what have you. Yep. What is the market feel right now for commercial real estate from where you are? You're you're in Houston, I believe. So what what is commercial real estate like in Houston? What do you hear around the country as far as occupancy as far as people being or where people at in the in the realm of we're heading into a recession. We're not heading into a recession. We're gonna put money in a building. What are your what are you clearing on the street? So I've spoken with a lot of folks recently. I mean, the market is slowing down with the inflation hikes. You know, there's not a whole lot of transactions going on. However, the folks that are occupying our own buildings that are now I'm thinking of downtown Houston. Some of these buildings have gone essentially unoccupied for now several years because of COVID and the return to work. Just never happened. So there's a lot of buzz about renovating buildings to change occupancy use. I know they're looking at, you know, changing office space to, maybe residential space. I've heard a lot of buzz there. Also, your bigger foe the commercial real estate folks, they're making a big push towards the energy efficiency upgrades. So there's some big project going on in Houston, maybe solar upgrades, which also qualify for other tax incentives. Things of that nature, these These large companies wanna be the first to take that step, to show that they're striving towards those, you know, low emissions low carbon, type projects. How much of what you hear from big corporate people do you consider greenwashing versus what the actual desire to help is in your estimation. Do you do you feel like the bulk of the people and, obviously, I don't want you to name any names, but -- Sure. -- do you feel like people genuinely think it's good practice to do. Do you think people think it's a good PR move to do some combination. What what's your take on it? Yeah. I think right now a lot of companies are thinking a good PR move. Right? It looks good to be making moves towards energy efficiency. Now not all of them are equal. And, obviously, the the best usually cost money, right, it's the most expensive choices that are going to impact the energy efficiency the most, but they're a little hesitant to spend that money. And I really think that was the intention of the inflation reduction act because there's so many incentives for energy efficient upgrades. To encourage folks if you can plan these accordingly, you can receive a significant tax benefit. And some of these credits are even available as direct pay option, which is wonderful. The direct pay option is essentially, you can cut a check-in the in the amount of the credit to a government entity or a nonprofit who normally wouldn't be able to receive these incentives. So they're trying to stretch this across a lot of entities to encourage and facilitate the right moves towards energy efficiency. Yeah. You know, I I read and watch and listen and, you know, you you have to put a little bit of a BS filter on to really dig deep, you know, so for a REIT, for instance, most REITs are non profit. Are they not? Mhmm. So that would be, a target for you would be to talk to Reats about investing in their properties, especially right now. Mhmm. I'd actually speak with a lot of nonprofits. Again, they would be, for one seven ninety, specifically, They would be allocating those deductions to their designers, but helping them understand the program and how they fit in, what their roles and responsibilities are make sure that this program actually gets facilitated out. What you don't want because you've got a party who can't who can't necessarily benefit and receive that deduction just straight out is to help them make a smooth and easy process so that the money is getting out to the designers, and they are getting these energy efficient projects in in exchange for that. So we do a lot of work with the nonprofits to try to help them understand the program. And again, that's that's the education and awareness piece. Now it's an interesting topic. You know, we're my the company I work for, we're private equity backed. And when you when you study what's going on in the private equity world, people that own companies, you know, they're keenly interested in in being good corporations, being good stewards of the environment. So I'm always booking it. Alright. What's the breakdown or where does the breakdown occur between ownership and then implementation? You know, who who throws the brakes up and why. Sure. Brakes on and why because it's just interesting to me, first of all, you know, there there's people are people, you know. So you have that whole human element into a business decision It's very it's a dynamic thing. And when you're talking about incentive, you wanna see the good parts of people come out. So that that's what -- Absolutely. -- and and this is a great way to do that for the right reason, for the right project. And, you know, I think that I would assume, I hate to use that word because it always gets me, but, part part of the year, I know how I just spell it really well. Believe me. I think that, you know, like any design, it has to be the proper application. You can't just try to bolt it on to something that it's not a natural fit for. And I would think that part of your education and awareness is is going over how to properly apply and what the application looks like. That's the perfect candidate. I would assume. Yes. Absolutely. A lot of the education awareness is around what types of projects make the best candidates for section one seven ID And, honestly, we discussed even how you could potentially claim other tax incentives or benefits or programs that are available out for certain types of projects to really maximize and capitalize on all of the available, ways to fund a project So, yeah, I mean, one of the rules that I share with my clients or prospects that we're talking to are, the twenty percent rule. So if the if the renovation impacts less than twenty percent of the building, it's usually not a good candidate for the for the program. So, you know, that kinda weeds out some of those. Well, we, you know, we replaced one air handler. So we wanna capitalize on this five dollars per square foot. That's not that's not realistic. You know, we're looking for projects where we're actually, we're actually targeting new technologies, really energy efficient technologies. And the nice thing is that these complimentary tax incentives like the investment tax credit, will provide even additional value there if you are implementing these types of high, new technology systems? Yeah. I heard a story recently that reminds me of you because it's energy related and it's structural related. Someone retrofit at a building with a fan wall. Are you familiar with fan walls? I am. But they didn't have a proper structure and the thing included on itself. So Oh my gosh. I thought about you that knowing you wouldn't do Right. Can you imagine that? You do this big project and saving all this money, and then the wall falls down. No. That would be horrible. That would really be terrible. That's the Monday morning call you don't want. That's right. So I wanna flip back over. It it's a little bit tax related, I guess. So it's more human related, talking about the commercial real estate buildings not being occupied, and and owners looking for a way to get them occupied because they all have mortgages on those buildings that they have to pay. And the conversion to, condominiums, say, in a high rise that used to be commercial real estate You know, the first thing that pops into my mind is plumbing nightmare, right, that will run off the bat. Right. From from a structural standpoint and the amount of x-ray technology that would have to be applied for coring Yep. That's just where my brain goes quickly. Then I go to, human, or air conditioning, Yep. And outside air in these buildings. Because they all were for the bulk of them going to be a centralized HPAC system, and now we're really trying to compartmentalize in a in a house or residence. What about that? Is freaky to you? What about that? Is a no brainer to you? And what do you think about converting buildings into high rise residential? I'm I'm a proponent. I mean, yes, there are definitely challenges with these projects for sure, but I'm a component because even though new construction is a good candidate for section one seven ID, the actual if we're looking at impacting energy efficiency. Renovating a building as opposed to newly constructing is the way to go. Right? We we need to make what we have existing more efficient. So if there's a way to do that, I'm absolutely in support. Now where I see challenges is to your point, Greg, You know, there are a lot of complications with this that cost money. Because of that, that might be money that's then pulled out of other things like the option to put in a more energy efficient system, maybe heat pumps versus a traditional, more traditional system or VRF units So finding a way, again, to to add an incentive so that they can see that they can handle that or cost to implement those high efficiency systems, and we'll receive that money on the back end. It's really important. I've I've talked with a lot of companies who are starting to help package together all the different types of grants, loans, incentives, rebates, so that they can show a building owner that these projects can fund themselves even if they're putting in high efficient systems. And I think that's the way to go for these type of projects. What would that what would the company that's putting those packages together? What kind of company is that? Is it a consulting company? Is that a Who does that? In some cases, I see them a lot. Like, they're not quite in an EscO where they're doing all of the labor themselves. But they are recommending and facilitating ECMs or energy conservation measures. So as a part of identifying all these programs that fit, they're also recommending based on an audit of your building. We see the building automation system should be upgraded You should add control to your lighting system. You know, VFDs would be installed on these units and make a a large impact on the energy efficiency of of the HVAC system. Them. So kind of consultants, but also having a a small hand in design. I think a lot of them once the initial measures are identified then bringing in design teams to facilitate that full design to be sure that it's it's standard. So I I'm I'm always about how people get paid. So the owner would pay for that service as part of the renovation Yes. Yes. Typically, at least that's what I have seen. Essentially, they are they're almost as if a construction manager, you know, managing each tyrant for the for the building owner. I was gonna say it's like construction manager plus. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So you brought up heat pumps and -- Sure. -- and VR VRV. I I'm worried about the electrification of our industry. And I'm not worried, like, I'm not worried worried. I'm worried that we don't have the electrical infrastructure to support this big incentive or this big initiative that is rolled out on a federal level and then just one minute state and locally, you know, I tell the story that the day that Gavin Newsom announced that I forgot which one of his wacky things. I think it was the gas stove day. Okay. Sure. I was in California. And I was taking a phone because of the conference, and me and a friend were walking from one from the hotel back to the convention center of vice versa. Yep. Now I said, Hey, I need to take this call. I'll meet you back over there. So I walked around the back of the building while I was on this phone call, and I kept hearing this high pitched noise and I thought it was a a, a water chiller with a variable speed compressor. Okay. This is what it sounded like in my head. Sure. Once you get up there, and I finally, you know, I'm like, hold hold on a minute. You know, on the phone, I got like, I've gotta figure out what this noise is is a freaking gas meter, a natural gas meter spinning so fast that it sounded like a a variable frequency drive compressor. Oh my god. That's all. Dude, we're so far away from going non fossil, even in California. Yep. How do how do we implement electrification on mass to all these outlying properties that simply don't have electrical infrastructure. And, and then I read the the RA, the infrastructure, or, what do we call it? The, reduction act, inflation reduction act, RA. Yep. And that's all we talk about. But we don't talk about how we're gonna build, and I'm going to a point here, have enough people to build the electrical infrastructure to support the heat pumps that all of our elected officials want us to support. So Right. Any thoughts on that rant, or is it just me ranting? Yeah. I'm I think of of all the topics that are really getting a lot of buzz right now from the industry. Just me following the industry, this is one of them. The idea, right, to go to heat pumps and everything. It's wonderful kind of in its boom bubble. But, yes, the implementation of it is going to be a challenge And this is where this is where we see often that the legislation that's rolled out by our officials has great intent. Right? They're they certainly have influence from from companies who are trying to push these great initiatives, but the Actual execution of making it happen is gonna happen in the industry. And it's gonna take a lot of smart industry professionals to come up with solutions to be sure that we can roll essentially both together, the upgrading to an electrical infrastructure and then being able to implement these heat pumps and receive these types of incentives and other, you know, and VRF's VRBs. So there's gonna be a lot of chatter And oftentimes, this has happened with even section one seven ID, after the industry really starts to dig in and identify what they can do to make this happen, the legislation may change. Yeah. So it may adjust in a few years just based off of what the industry feeds back essentially to our legislators. Where it may change in eighteen months, depending on who's It's true. Yeah. Who who's fine? Yeah. It it it depends on how fast we can get that information back. But that's why a lot of times you see guidance released on a lot of these programs after they're actually rolled out. It gives time for the industry to evaluate and say, okay, this is realistic. We can do this for this requirement here. Doesn't make any sense at all, and we need to maybe make some changes to make this more adaptable. You know, so our industry, HVAC industry is undergoing probably once in a generation change -- Yeah. -- on a lot of fronts. Yes. So we've got the whole refrigerant debacle. Yep. We've got Sierra two energy ratings out now. We've got all these green initiatives that are being pushed by leadership, ownership, and customers. We've got the electrification issue. We've got a, you know, and and to your point, I love heat pumps. I mean, you you can produce heat pumps from an inverter driven compressor at minus ten degrees with a leave of a feed system. That's pretty darn slick. Right. But you still have to provide power. Right. And so we're doing all that with a declining workforce. So Mhmm. You know, it it baffles me that we're not putting more emphasis and more dollars towards recruiting and retaining our workforce. I mean, it's like a company that has forty four salesmen and two technicians, you know. Right. Right. You keep selling. You keep selling all these opportunities, and you got these two dudes or this day and age, two ladies out here getting it done, but you can only do so much because you only have so many So Right. Of course. I'm hoping that the course correction, and I think we're starting to hear it. You know, people So nothing changes until it affects the influencers at their house. I'm firmly, I'm firmly believer. Uh-huh. When a congressman or a senator or whomever is hot and sweaty in their bedroom because they can't get an air conditioning tuck to come out to their house, that's when it affects people. When they can't go in the restroom and flush the toilet, and it'll be successful. That's when it affects people. And I think we're getting closer and closer to that that point to where people are like, you know, two weeks to get my house looked at, you know, because that's how booked everyone is. So I've I've I've hope and pray that we're at that point to where we're we're kind of at the tipping point or we're approaching the tipping point of people realizing my crap. Crofton's right. You know? But Sure. I think, you know, I think our legislators took at least a step toward that direction by implementing the prevailing wage and apprenticeship requirements for a lot of these incentives. Yeah. So, essentially, companies can't claim these bonus rates, which in most of the incentives I work is five times as much. So it's a significant increase unless they are paying their laborers and mechanics prevailing wages, and they are facilitating apprentices to come be a part project. And so, you know, it's not gonna solve the whole problem, but it's certainly a step in the right direction. Because as as our building owners and our designers implement these on on the projects, hopefully that will stimulate that industry for sure. That's a great point. Great point, Abby, you know, the the morph is there's no magic bullet. You know, it takes a bunch of these things coming together. You know, it takes advocates. It takes, you know, people like me that are in the industry talking about, and it takes people like you that are aware of, takes Gabby telling her sisters that they should be HVAC apprentices, you know, all, and I'm serious about that, Gabby. Don't forget. But it takes a a bunch of different inputs. You know, there's there's no magic bullet, but that that's a great point. And, you know, we So our company's half union and half non union. Okay. Six six thousand or so workers. Sure. And four thousand or so skilled workers about half a union, half nine. And, you know, we're starting to see more apprentice journeyman ratios changed to encourage more apprenticeship. Not just a bunch of, you know, fifty five year old Dukes. So we're we're getting there in in a broad way. But I know that, we're a long way away from one seventy nine d, but I'm really good with that because all this kind of impacts the ability to implement these these, tax incentives, you know. If you don't have workers -- Right. -- you know, you can't do it. This this other thing just popped into my head too, the word lentil, and you would know what a rental is as a structural year. I don't know why, but there you go. That's just random thought of the day. So Sure. I remember why I know that, had to do with a structural engineer in a masonry wall that that, I violated. So Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I've learned how to build one. Yeah. It's been a while since I've designed a lintel, but definitely have. I, I I got a lesson in in, lentil building one night. Okay. Well, that alright. So what what do you want the world to know about you and your company and how you can help people with this opportunity. How what do you you know, like, I wanna be the cheerleader for this effort. What what does it take to What what would you like the message to be to the general population? Sure. So I work for a CPA firm, Calvetti Ferguson. We do all sort of advising and accounting. So I think first off and foremost, that's an important factor in in pursuing these incentives is having a an all encompassing team who can look at your financial situation from a lot of different angles. We have a lot of experience both from the C PA side and the engineering side. And that's the best way to make sure that if you're going to pursue these incentives, they make the most sense for you and your company, and you're gonna maximize that value back. But what we do and what our mission is is to make these very complicated incentives something that is easy to understand, and we can be a trusted partner to help you implement them in your project to consult you on your project to to see where and when to plan for these types of things. That's really my goal is to make this easy for my client. Hopefully, they can benefit from these tax programs and reduce their tax liability. So in a nutshell, that's that's really it. We we'd be happy to help whoever could possibly benefit from these. You know, it seems to me, and I don't know. I don't know, you know, tax code or CPA firms well, but it seems to be, like, that's a unique thing you have, a tax a tax firm with engineering, specialty. Is that is that uncommon? I would say yes. It's pretty rare. It's probably going to become more relevant now that these incentives received so much enhancement and there's so much technical information to consider. But a lot of times they're separated. You'll have the CPA firm, and they might contract with a third party engineering type firm. Who can do the technical analysis for these. I think that's what sets us apart is I'm working with the CPA's every single day I can translate all of the technical information to them, and we can look at the tax position as a whole as opposed to two separate parts coming together. You know, I I think that's really cool, first of all, because I feel like that more and more companies in general are going to have this hybrid model of what they have historically done versus what the industry that they may be and it's morphing into. And people don't wanna call three or four different numbers to get an answer. They want to be able to have to your point while ago a trusted advisor -- Mhmm. -- and say, Abby, this is what we wanna do, you know, and and maybe it's a business development person that they contact, but intercompany, you know, you get to be routed to somebody that can help. As opposed to somebody saying, we don't do that. You know, we third party that. I think it's a matter of people having the time And, I don't know the bandwidth for a lack of a better word. They just people want answers, you know, and and they don't want it to go to multiple sources for it. Right. I I completely agree. I think that's why we have so many services under our cavity, Ferguson and umbrella. For the idea of it being a one stop shop, we're also a middle market firm. So, you know, you're you're very large CP firms. You're deloitte's PWCs, they, of course, have all sorts of services under their umbrella, but we're here to serve a a smaller company size, a smaller client, and provided them that same level complete services, including consulting on these incentives. Just at a price that makes sense for them. So I'm really I've really enjoyed working with the CPA partners. I think it makes us be able to provide the absolute best service and to your point, they can call one number and get a salt same day. Yeah. I like that. I I think the hybrid model is just the way to go. You know? Yeah. It's I see it in everything, you know, from from design of websites to integration and to full blown digital. The company that that Gabby worked for that I partner with, you know, they're fantastic at saying yes because they have internal skills to help you with the need. They don't have to go recruit somebody or contract somebody. They have that internal tool, not well, some of them are. They have internal tools to help solve the problem of the day. You know, it's not like, okay, we've gotta go find somebody for x, y, or z. They've got a, a big war chest building house, Oh, that's great. Yeah. And and, you know, to our point or to my point while I go, you don't wanna call around. You just wanna call. You know, like, I need help. And and the other thing is I believe that that this device right here is coming back in vogue to be used as a communication tool like this and stuff with digits. I really For the last year or so, it's been amazing to me the number of people that are calling again versus the number of people who are text or email. I don't know if you guys have seen that, your, in your personal lives, but I certainly have. Yeah. I have too. And honestly, a lot of my clients prefer phone calls. And I do too. We can accomplish so much via a phone call so much more than a text message string. I know that for sure. It it's, you know, and and people say, well, these young kids, you know, This is very strange. It's these old white dudes like me that, like, dude, just call me and we can spend two minutes and save about forty four thousand keystrokes. And -- Yes. -- you'll have to call you afterwards. But I think maybe that that's a good thing. I believe it's a good thing. I'm not sure about COVID residual. Maybe it's one silver lining out of COVID. I don't know. I think we're communicating better and quicker, more succinctly in person with a phone. So I'm going to the grave with that. I'll be there with you. Absolutely. I love it. We're just Gabby, what's your take on phone versus, digits? I've I've always preferred phone calls over messaging. I just But I'm also I'm also a talker. So I'm like I just doesn't have the same feel when I'm like texting someone. I feel like I can say so much more when I tell someone in the same amount of time. You know, that's so true. It's just like I'm trying to convert my wife over to use voice to text when she's texting people. But anyway, that's we'll we'll dive into that on the Doctor. Phil show. Well, Abby, we're coming up on our time, where I've got I actually have something I have to do at the top of the hour today. Usually, it's Gabby pushing us to get off the phone, but really have appreciated your time and, and, you know, your insight. I love the way you go about doing your business in that your educating people along the way, not just telling them what the tax code is, you know, because it means so much more with relevant experience and and being able to put yourself in their shoes and understanding how it could impact the project, both positively in in when it's not a the right fit, you know, I think That's right. Excuse me, being able to say, this isn't a good fit is just as important and saying it is a good fit because you're building trust with every one of those, knows. So I appreciate that too. Yeah. It's been great, Greg. Thank you so much for inviting me. It was good conversation. And I think really important conversation to dive into some of these topics. I know it's top of mind for a lot of folks in the industry. Well, we're gonna keep talking about it until our electric heat pump fails and our lights go out. But, That's right. We're gonna we're gonna run into the end. So, well, thanks again, Gabby. You wanna you wanna wrap us up and, get us headed the right direction. Absolutely. Well, thank you, Abby, for joining us, and everyone else. Thank you so much for Joining us for another episode of straight out of Crumpton. For more episodes like this one, make sure to subscribe to the podcast through Spotify or Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to check out greg crumpton dot com for all of your Greg crumpton content. This this is straight straight. Three out of Crumpton with your host, Greg Crumpton.