The Unseen Lives of NFL Bubble Players and Up-and-Coming Agents

Hello, and welcome to Tuesdays with Morris Adam Moresey. Today, I'm thrilled to be joined by former NFL player, Brandon Zilstra, and banner sports agent, Jamie Moton. How's it going to get today guys? Thanks for coming on the show. Fantastic. Yeah. I like that, guys. We've been going real deep the last few episodes. So excited to have a lighter conversation with you guys. You have both have great kinda unlikely stories. So excited to have a conversation about some of the overlooked aspects of sports, and some of the things each of you guys have learned along the way. Brandon, knowing a little bit about your story in the past, I mean, from Spice, Minnesota, you know, it shot three football too. What's that? It says shot outs, Vice from Minnesota and a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Seven man football. I'm kidding. But they brought you to the NFL of Minnesota, Carolina, Detroit. How do you think about that It was it was a journey, obviously. Just all the stuff you had to go through, all the stuff I had to learn on my own. Just not having an agent coming out of coming out of college and just essentially figuring out the journey on my own I think taught me a lot, you know, out outside of football as well. But I don't know. I mean, It was super fun journey, very, I don't know, unlikely. Lot of twists and turns, but, you know, we we made it work. Yeah. But for those who don't know, you played d three football at a small school in Minnesota, then after school, like, did you know you were gonna go to the CFL? Probably didn't know you're gonna break records in the CFO, but, like, you probably had to navigate that all by yourself. So a a lot of that, like I not having an agent, trying to figure out that. Just, you know, coming from a small division three school, playing receiver, and if anybody knows anything about football, I played in the triple option. So I literally kinda put myself the lowest you could kinda be at the totem pole before trying to make that next step. I'd say, like, just jumping into Brandon's story to, like, to know. I I like it's a it's a hard thing to really speak on because I feel like Brandon knew. Like, we talked about it all the time. Like, he always said he was gonna go pro. He always said that he wanted to play at the highest level. And so, like, maybe other people didn't think it, you know, even myself at times, like, have a little doubt here and there, but I feel like branded new the entire time. That's kinda why I believe he got to that point. And, I mean, speaking to your spot your thing on agents, Brandon, like, now since being an agent for a few years and I've had to work with a division three player in the past. Like, I I understand how many obstacles it is and how it almost damn near seems impossible at times. Unless you're one of the few guys at the division three level that are, you know, getting drafted, typically an offense alignment or a defense alignment that can show, you know, show their size and strength. But for Brandon, it's like, honestly, I feel like if you would have been talking to a bunch of agents, if you would have been involved a lot more, like, it would have seemed a lot harder than it did you. Like, you wouldn't have done is all the stuff that you did. Because of the, all the, you know, doors and stuff that are up, speaking to an agent. Like, whenever I speak to a division three kid, I have to lay it straight to how hard it really is. But for you and you were going through it, like, you were almost blind. To all that stuff. And you just kinda kept, you know, taking one step to the next, one step to the next. And, you know, finally, like, teams started to see your worth when you're in the CFO. So I kinda feel like, you know, it was almost a blessing in disguise that you had nobody in your corner, during that period of time. Now, and you always took the right steps to work with, you know, riff or whoever was around you to be making your body better for the next level. So I felt like you're always doing those things at a professional level. But from the, like, the barriers, the entry is almost like you were blind to them, and it really helped you just to kinda, like, always keep it moving and never really get discouraged in any way. Because the unity guys at the highest level that, you know, played at the highest level, played in huge games, but then they run into one of those barriers. And it's like, well, I I don't know if I can make it through it, or maybe I should look into something different where Brandon was kinda like, this is the only way. So I just gotta have to figure out how to make it work. Well, just kind of on top of that too. I actually talked about this recently on another podcast. Somebody somebody asked me about that. You know, like, what was what was your plan b? If football didn't work out, And that's that's something, like, I I heard this quote from Will Smith at one point that said, like, don't have a plan b because this distracts from plan a. And I really took that to heart. And I essentially, like, in my mind, what I told myself is, like, if football doesn't work out, you're homeless. I was and that was just a way for me to, like, put all my chips in. That's why I was not afraid to fail. That's why I was not afraid to really just put myself out there and exhaust every resource and exhaust exhaust myself at every workout because I told myself, like, this is the only way. Like, this was your goal. You are super stubborn, competitive individual, like, you're gonna make this work. And that was just always kinda like my mindset going into it. And I know you played on the actual the Minnesota Vikings, but in case you guys didn't notice the the actual Vikings, what they would do when they would, you know, sail across see and land on, like, a place where a battle will take place. The first thing they would do is burn their boats. No going home. The only way they're rolling out is is by winning the battle. Jamie, you and Brandon grew up together. How did you you mentioned Brandon, like, the obstacles you face on not having an agent at certain points. It sounds like it was actually a positive in disguise. How'd you guys put it together that you know, Jamie would step into this role as your agent. I think that, like, initially, when he was kinda going over to CFO, I was still playing basketball myself. I did an injury. And so I kinda had saw that I, you know, maybe the professional route wasn't, you know, overseas professional route wasn't the route that I wanted even necessarily try. Like, I was a little bit more ambitious to maybe jump into the business world. And so when we we would just always be spitballing about stuff and When he started to get some love from the NFL, it was kinda like more of like like damn. That would be fun for us to kinda work together. And we've always had a plan to work together in something. But then it was kinda more of like, you know, maybe you could be my agent or maybe you look into being my agent, kinda all that. And so Once we kind of had the idea, it was on me to make it work, I would say, to go, you know, get my agent license, figure out, you know, resources, have an agent He have it back and have a place that, like, Brent and whoever to sign with me, it would be good for him too. It wouldn't just be like him signing with me as out of charity or him signing with me because I'm his best friend. And so I was blessed to run into one of the, if I think is the best agent in the NFL and Mike McCarthy, in the Chicago area. And so I built a great relationship with him. And then over time, I got my, you know, NFLPA license or certification became an agent. And then I had to beg Brandon every day to switch over to me. No, not necessarily beg, but I had to ask him every single day, recruit him every day for about a year still maybe seven, eight months, after I got my, you know, my certification. I had a couple different clients underneath my belt with Mike at that point too. Prior to Brandon coming over. And that was always like, you know, in the moment, it was always like, bro, come on. Like, we've talked about this for years and now that he's here. Like, how do you not jump yet? But it really did help me in the, like, like, you know, I'm looking back on it. It just helped me kinda grind and prove to him, which essentially prove to everybody that I belonged in this space, and myself and my team could do it at the highest level. And that I, you know, I was learning and he wanted me to necessarily, I guess, like, go through those growing pains, of course, too, before he took his career into you know, into my work as well. But it it kinda just started off as a fun idea and something that we knew we always worked together on something. We didn't know necessarily what it was. But then I saw this door open from him jumping into the NFL at that time and doing well. And then me building an incredible relationship with Mike and Courtney. And him wanting to mentor me and kinda take me under his wing and you know, teach me the ways I think of, you know, just the business. Right? Like, you can have as many relationships as possible, but if you don't know the business, can't represent your player at the highest level. And so once that kinda all came together, it was a no brainer. But I think, you know, it took like I said, six, seven months of kind of proving my worth, improving, you know, what I had on my side with, my the team before Brandon came over and then Shane and and then we kinda got it running from there. Well, I was just gonna say, like, I don't know if you remember what I used to tell you, but I I used to tell you, like, this ain't a game. This is my career. Like, prove to me that, you know, you're that I I can trust you and that you're worth it and whatnot. And so, I I still do think it's kinda funny that I made him wait that long because like he said, he he would tell me and be like, bro. Like, like, what's up? You know, I And whatever Doctor out every test that we've talked about. I've become I'm an agent now. I'm with a great backing. I've got you have graphics that you on my side with me is, like, all these things is, like, let's let's go and he's, like, not yet. But, essentially, it pushed me to sign and to work with some other great players in the meantime while I was, you know, kind of work trying to work at my highest level to get my best friend to come over as well. You know, what I think so amazing about that story that probably doesn't get enough credit Jamie is just how unlikely your story is. Like, I'm from Ohio, so, like, not too far away from you guys. They're from, but, like, I only know one person that's an agent in any capacity in any industry for a while. Like, if you're not from New York Chicago, Miami, pretty tough to do. What was the hardest thing for you about entering the agency world? Entering, was initially off the jump, it was because I wanted to be in the wrong sport, honestly. When I met Mike McCarthy at the our our last agent see. At the time, my I grew up playing basketball. I was in basketball. I felt like I knew the sport of basketball better. And my heart was there at the time. And so I wanted to necessarily continue on to that. And so I fought for about a year ish maybe a year and a half trying to get into the NBA, scene with the agency. And it just wasn't the right fit at the time and which was great because they were very, you know, kind and helpful in the in the meantime of trying to hire me or me trying to get hired there. And so once that didn't mess when that, you know, didn't work out, Mike, on the football side was very, like, hey, I love your ambition. I love your energy, your work ethic. I think we can work really well together. I just gotta teach you the business a lot more. And so I'd say like, you know, trying to figure out my my where I fit in. It was probably the hardest hardest part right away. You know, once I started working with Mike and got into football around, it was kinda like go. Like, there wasn't a whole lot of like, alright, this is where you start. This is the things that you need to be doing. It was more of just like, hey, go and it's a really competitive space. So figure it out. And so, you know, Mike and I worked together really, really well to kinda figure out what my role would be. And my role's always gotta be constantly growing, into much more of, you know, independent. I could do it, you know, on my own with the agency role. Now, I never would wanna be there. I'd always want a full team and everybody around me, but I do think it there's a strength to have an agent that handle everything on and off field as well whenever you do get there. But yeah, I I I've noticed now over the the four or five year span that I've been doing this, that the barrier of the injury is tough. You gotta have, you know, your masters, you gotta pass it, NFL PA test, which costs money, You gotta get the right insurance, which costs money. And you gotta have the right people around you that are attractive and do great work. For the players too. So as I'm seeing it now, like, I was completely blessed to run into the guy that I, you know, hopefully will work with my entire career until you're retired. But I for other people, I can definitely see that, like, just building that relationship and getting to a point within an agency that, you know, it's like, you know, you're a bit you bring value to us. So so let's get running from there. It's really, really tough. I, like I said, I was blessed. I ran into Mike at a at a gym. Honestly, like, it's I broke my foot. My college teammate was like, hey, come to this gym. I know the trainer and he'll, you know, he'll rehab you for free. And I'm a college kid. They wanna really pay a whole lot when it came to extra rehab and stuff. And I was trying to get back on the court. And so my college, she may introduce me to this trainer, this tiny small gym in Chicago, probably holds about five people at a time. And I was going in there, like, five, six o'clock in the mornings before classes would start. And this guy, Mike was in there every single morning that I was, And he was I couldn't move a whole lot at the time, but he was getting a workout in, like, just an animal in there. I'm not gonna lie. Like, I'm not gonna hype him up. He was an animal in there. And so finally, I'm just, like, asking the trainer, like, who is this guy? Like, who, you know, who is he, what does he do? And then he kinda let me know a little bit about his background and his past people he'd represented. And then at that point, I just kinda, like, like, that sounds exactly what, you know, I wanna do. Plus, it was the same timing that Brandon and I were talking about, you know, him transitioning from the CFO to the NFL. And so he was kinda, like, talking about agents, meeting a few of them, And so when I came across Mike, I was like, hey, you got time to get a conversation with him, you know, whatever it may be. And so once that conversation started and we all kinda got together in a in a in a I think it was a phone call maybe at the time. It just kinda like clicked. Like, the picture was there. And at that was like, this is what I wanna do. And kinda like Brandon said about football. I was like, there was no other. There was no other option at that point. It was like, you know, become an agent. You know, be the best agent you can, and this is gonna be a lifelong career. Because, yeah, you guys get it when you're in college and you're looking at different professions. It's more of like jobs versus professions. And this seemed like a lifelong career profession route that I was excited about where I wasn't like, damn, I gotta go to work. And so it was like, I'm gonna put all my eggs, you know, everything I got in that basket to try to make it work because it could change my life. And so, yeah, like I said, like the hardest part would probably be just, you know, figuring out where you fit in and building that relationship with an agency, because if you're a smaller agency, not saying you can't succeed because a lot of smaller agents and agencies do, but it's it's a doggy dog world out there and a lot of times, the team with more resources and that are doing better work end up winning. So I definitely wanted to be, you know, at the top with those. And I I start I was blessed to start out there, with Mike at our last agency, and then we made a transition over to Vayner sports that I think just made us much stronger even. Super cool. Yeah. It's it's it's interesting as I learn more. Obviously, know more about Brandon's story than yours, Jamie, but, like, how they're kind of mirrors of each other and similar to the fact that, you know, the agency world is kind of like an unseen part. You know, you hear about it every once in a contract is signed and such. But so is life as a bubble player? So, like, you hear, you know, you're worried about patching my homes and But, you know, Brandon, you had a great career many years, touchdowns, kickoff Steven, which is hilarious. I mean, could you share a little bit about your experiences and any stories that stand out from, like, being on the bubble? So the life of a bubble player, I was somebody who was always, you know, honestly, almost every single, team I joined, I'm talking, I guess, it started at Augustana, the first college I went to, but I'm talking mainly CFO and all the NFL teams. When I would come into training camp, you know, I was just this big, tall white receiver, and I would legit start at the bottom of the Ross every every single year, I was at the bottom of the roster. I vividly actually remember telling Jamie, like, these stories like, you know, I'm at the bottom again. Even, you know, even my second year in the NFL, I beat out I beat out a lot of people who actually had names, had guaranteed money and whatnot. And then the very next year was right at the bottom. I remember calling Jamie one time, and I was just like, dude, you know, I finished out, you know, number four or five, receiver last year actually playing, you know, big special teams guy. And I'm number fourteen again. Fourteen to fourteen. Like, this is this is crazy. But, like, I think that was good for me because I had the the work ethic and I just didn't that I guess being a bubble player never scared me. I just knew that I was willing to do more than everybody else. So life of bubble player, it was my job very like I I was not afraid to, go do all these special team stuff, which a lot of players don't like to do. Some of them, you know, one, don't know how. Two, think they're too good for that or they deserve more. So, like, it was it was on me to, like, well, cool. I'll go do that. That goes off to that kickoff story. Just just being being and willing to do anything. But I guess outside of, like, the actual football thing, It's being a good player. It's mentoring the younger guys. Like, that's I feel like I was always a good teammate in the locker room. A lot of younger guys, a lot of, like, rookies and stuff come up and talk to me just because I knew the life of a bubble player. I would tell them, you know, what coaches are looking for, how to talk to them, how to study maybe, go study with them, go through playbook with them, tell them how to stand out a little bit more on the football field, but, like, I would say almost every single year, I would try to find one guy that that I thought kind of like you know, some some guy where I've been in his position before, you know, he, like, some guy that I think is talented that is maybe being overlooked or is lacking the confidence or something like that. And I would always to go like essentially mentor those kids and just just try to give them at least a better shot of you know, the experiences that I had, trying to take those same experiences and try to give it to them. I never had any kind of problem trying to help anybody else because I always figured because, obviously, you know, I'm trying to mentor guys in the same position as me, but my thought process behind it was always like, I'm gonna try to help you make you better because ultimately that's gonna me better because, you know, if you're starting to perform better, you know, I'm somebody who thrives off a competition in general. So, like, if I see you getting better, I'm gonna go and do that much more to, you know, prove that I deserve to be higher than you on the roster. Nuh more than happy to, you know, help you, but I'm gonna elevate too. Could you share a little bit about the experience moving from Minnesota to the Carolina. Yeah. So it's pretty crazy. You know, the the transition process that, you know, the the average fan just doesn't exactly see, but, I'm in I'm in Minnesota. I get the call. I'm cut. So after you're cut, you get a twenty four hour, like, waiver period where a team can essentially put a claim on you and depending upon, like, their ranking in the in the waiver wire order. I mean, it's a lot like fantasy football. If anybody plays fantasy football, but, Like, if they claim you, you're you're going there. And so, I get cut And that I get cut on Friday at noon. Saturday comes around Saturday morning. Still haven't heard anything. I think I might have been at Jamie's house, actually, or No. You were at you were at the house. Alright. I've I've I remember vividly because you had about like forty it was like forty minutes left with the waiver wire. We had just got off the phone talking to Mike about, like, what's it look like if you end up clearing waivers, and you got clean with forty minutes left. And I remember you running out the house. Because you're running to your place to grab your stuff, and all your stuff is in my basement. No. So so talking with the agent, The viking the vikings wanted me to be come back on practice roster. But and they they kept trying to tell me, Brandon, come in, sign your papers, come in, sign your papers, and I was just like, look, my agent told me to wait, you know, there's still there's still an hour left. There's still forty five minutes left. And it or I think at at that point, it was probably like two hours And then, when I got down to an hour, I called my agent again. I was like, still nothing. He goes, no. He goes, alright. You can start heading into the facility, you know, go sign your practice roster papers. So I'm literally on ninety four headed to the facility, and I get a text from one of my friends. It was Ryan Turnquist Jamie. Yep. Of my friends texted me and he goes, I'm officially a Carolina Panthers fan. And I was just like, what are you talking about? And then two seconds later, my agent calls and he goes, congratulations, you're Carolina Panther. I was just like, what do you mean? He goes, yeah, they just they just put in the claim. You know, you have four minutes left or whatever. And I was just like, okay. So I literally hit the next exit, turned back around, went to Jamie's, And, Carolina called me. There's, like, you know, we just put a claim on you, and this is this is mind you. This is noon at the time. We just put a claim on you. There's a flight for three o'clock, five o'clock, seven o'clock. Which one can you get on? And I was just it's that quick. Like, practices tomorrow. Like, starts tomorrow. So I'm just like, that's crazy. It's a turn around that quick. So I literally went back to Jamie's, threw a bunch of stuff in a duffel bag, hit the flight at five and was in Charlotte by what seven seven that night. Perfect. They pick you up from the they pick you up from the airport, drop you off at the hotel, give you a playbook, and you just hit the ground running. So, like, it's it's kind of a long or like Well, it's obviously a shock to to anybody because not only do you have to start a new job? You have to start you have to learn the playbook. You have to learn facility. I knew literally nobody in Charlotte. I didn't know anything about Charlotte. Never been to North Carolina. So it's not I don't wanna say a culture shock, but it's kind of a culture shock in that sense. Going to somewhere so unknown. And while you need to focus on, you know, the the main thing. Keep the main thing, the main thing. Right? I need to do what I can to, you know, show my worth and be a part of this team and earn my earn my stripes. All in the background, I need to find a place to live now. Need to find a play or find out how to get all my stuff to Charlotte. And so luckily enough, I had all my stuff at Jamie's house and I literally called him up and I was like, you know, what's up? I was just like, like, you want you wanna come to Charlotte. So he ended up actually, throwing literally my entire life in my car and driving my car from Minnesota down to Charlotte. And then while I'm at work, while I'm at the facility, you know, doing all that stuff, this dude actually went and found different apartments that we're gonna go to. Like, he he got my he helped get my life together. But it it's yeah. It's it's just crazy, like, how fast all that stuff happens. And, like, like I said, the average fan just doesn't see that that life, they just see, you know, you on TVs on Sunday, but they don't think about this man literally just moved across the country with none of his stuff to find a place to live. We'll also, you know, being at the facility from six until nine, trying to learn this playbook because, like, they're you you don't have time to wait, like, week one starts, and you just get thrown right into practice. And, it honestly, I remember that first practice too, like going out there They just expect you to figure it out. Like, I had obviously been with the playbook for a few hours maybe at that point, but you get into practice I'm in the huddle with Cam Newton. And I was I literally look, and I was just like, y'all y'all need to tell me what to do. Like, I don't I don't know anything. And they're saying, oh, you'll be fine. They said to play, and I literally just look at him. And I was like, where like, where did I go? I remember, like, what's what am I doing? And so it's just crazy how fast you're thrust it into everything and just kind of expect it to figure it out. Yeah. It's pretty amazing. I love the fact that your friend found out you did. I'm sure that's not by design, but that's that's how it works. I also think it's amazing too, Jamie, on your side, as much ambiguity as Brandon has transitioning, like you as his agent are like, oh, like, I guess I'll help you set up your electric bills. Well, I wasn't even this agent at the time. And you're still earning these credits too. Yeah. I was going through, I was working at a different job, and then also, like, studying for the NFLPA test at the time. Sign it up becoming an agent later that year. But when I had gone down to Charlotte with Brandon, all of his stuff, I was just kinda like, I had free time. Like, I was, you know, I was there because I brought his stuff down. And I just was kinda like, what do you need? You know, all that type of stuff so I could knock out some of it while he was, like, he said at work. Little did I know that I was, like, being an agent? Like, that's that's part of, you know, what, you know, what we do. And I have a team now, and had people that are much better at the client service realm of finding those type of things and understanding how the team, you know, the Panthers could have helped out at the time too, which we didn't really know anything about as well. But, like, it's it is funny looking back on it, like, me being at a multiple different partner complex is trying to work out a deal because we have no idea if you're there for a month or six months or whatever. So just making sure he wasn't tied into, like, a long term know, leasing contract and stuff like that at that time. But it was just kinda like us, like you said winging it and figuring it out along the ways, but Those are the, like, those are the best stories because we were just so new to everything, but now, like, we could look back. And I was just thinking, like, Brandon, the you being a French player and never knowing where you're gonna go or, you know, what is stable. Like, that has now transition into your current life or where you're at now because, like, you're just like, maybe I wanna be here for a month. Maybe I wanna be here for six months. Like, I I'm comfortable in being able to move and do this and that now without it feeling, you know, hectic in any way. That you kinda have this, like, almost, like, flexibility all the time. But again, when at the time, it was like, man, what What are we doing? Like, neither one of us had ever even been to North Carolina, like, when I thought of North Carolina, I thought of UFC and Duke. Like, that was about it. Other than that, I didn't know anything about it. Yeah. It's amazing. I found also, like, I think one of the highest skills of leadership and success is comfort with ambiguity. And both of you guys have certainly had a lot of experience demonstrating that. Brandon, I'd be curious. I mean, you were in mar multiple organizations, like, How do these teams work from, like, a a management perspective or just said another way? Like, what makes, like, a, a coach or a team or, like, a team leader great I thought, I guess if looking back at a few different or a few of my different experiences, Looking looking at the head coach to start. The communication with the head coach, I think, is huge. The transparency with a with head coach is huge. And so, like, I you know, I'd say that to say, like, I'm I don't wanna, like, rag on certain people, but, like, one of my professional experiences I had absolutely zero ties to the head coach, maybe talked to him twice in my life. Never felt comfortable around him. Then I go, you know, the second place I play, well, I went to Carolina and Ron Rivera is just this super personable I go, you know, I'm I don't know anybody there. I don't know anybody on the team. I sit down on the lunch here my first day. He comes and sits next to me, starts asking questions. And I just had I've that would that took me by shock. I didn't know. Like, I've never had that experience with another coach, I guess, at that level because You know, obviously things are a little bit different in in the NFL, but that just that said a lot about him and made me respect him so much more. It's just like, dude, I wanna play harder for this guy. Like, he actually cares. A week later, he comes and sits down with me again, starts asking me about my brothers. And so it's not It wasn't just the conversation was that he remembered and he actually cared. And, I mean, that's why that's why Ron Rivera who he is today, and that's why guys love playing for him. He, you know, he you could tell he actually cares and is passionate about his players. And, you know, he tells you what you need to hear. He's very transparent. But then, you know, transitioning to Detroit having Dan Campbell as a head coach, that was a, you know, I don't wanna say another level up, but, like, you know, another former player. He, one knows how to talk to guys. He knows these guys, you know, had a super tough game, a lot of injuries, you know, a lot these guys are wore out. Let's let's cut practice a little bit today. So he was somebody who he really understood the life of an player, he understood what we're going through, what we're thinking, what we're feeling. And, you know, his he develops his a culture around there and his entire coaching staff are all former players. So they just they just got it versus you go to some of these other organizations and a bunch of the coaches are, you know, maybe played college or maybe only played high school and started their coaching ranks right away, but didn't actually play in the NFL. Being in Detroit, I thought was just it was by far the best overall coaching staff I've ever been a part of because it was just a bunch of former players and they just they knew how to talk to you, they knew how to present stuff to you. It was just it was different. And, obviously, you can see what Detroit's doing now. We're just going on this tear that they're doing. What are they thirteen and four in the last you know, eighteen games or seventeen, whatever it is. They've just they they I think they really do it right there. I think they've built something, and I think that's all a testament to Dan Campbell and how he approaches the team, with his passion and his fire. And, you know, he's it's it's easy to play for a guy like that. You know he generally cares about you. You know, he's giving it. You're all. So, like, you you know, you You want to give your all back to him. You want to make him happy. And, yeah. So That's super cool. Yeah. I've seen that a lot in organizations. Some keys success would be, you know, once the concept of psychological safety. It's like, do these people feel comfortable to be themselves? Yes. Comfortable giving their best. Like, they know that they can go for something and fail and still be respected and promoted. And then also what I think so amazing about teams is They're so autonomous. You got twenty five I don't know how many coaches there are, but it might as well be twenty five coaches, maybe more. And then you got all of these different players all doing their job. So giving people the space to create and grow, I think it's really important. Jamie, something I was wanting to pick your brain on is just because, like, you're hearing so much about it and, like, you know, you see it with the collar out of football team probably most visibly. Like, how does, like, social media and NIL? I know two very different things, but connected. How has that changed the agency game? I think it's changed it. I'm not gonna say dramatically. It's definitely made it much earlier. Right? Like your, you're not social media, but NIL, you're recruiting your, you know, trying to figure out who the next guy is much earlier than, you probably were in the past. And that's because guys are necessarily maybe tying themselves to agents a little bit earlier because they're allowed to use a marketing team. They're allowed to use, you know, maybe it's financial advisors or just in general a management team around them. At a earlier stage. I mean, when you're when you're a five star kid in high school that, you know, can make, you know, x amount of money and the first time any type of money has been coming in and now there's contracts coming your way. Like, it's, you know, you should have a team behind you. You should have somebody you know, behind you that has, you know, some experience in the in the arena to, you know, keep you safe. Right? Cause there's been evidence, and you can see that some people will try to do really bad deals with younger kids, before they know it. But I honestly, like, I kinda agree with, I feel like the same thought process from the NFL, from the NIL perspective. Like, I think it's really good that these kids are getting paid. I, you know, especially when it's around their worth, and it's nothing shady in any way. And it it also, like, it completely shows you who's in it for money. And who's in it because they love to sport and the money comes with it. And so it it it there's an opportunity to kinda you know, I guess siphon out some of the, you know, guys that might you might have wasted your time on or, you know, might not, you know, once they get that first, you know, paycheck every rookie year, like, they're not the same grind thing, you know, gotta put food on the table type person. And so I've enjoyed the NIL perspective to it. It definitely makes it more competitive because there's just more people are a are able to get in from money, from deals at the end of the day. But then from social media, like, social media in my eyes is just like, it's just a platform to grow your Like, it honestly, like, social media has nothing to do with on field production or on field anything, really, at the end of the day. It but it does have a lot to do with your off the field brand. If you handle your social media the right way or have the right people around you that can paint the genuine picture, you know, the picture that you want for your brand. It gives you this opportunity to really do something outside of just your sport. And to show your fan base and everybody, like who you are, like, especially in the football world versus basketball and other sports. Like, you got a helmet on the entire time. You're not always the guy that's mic'd up. You can't be heard, you know, in all these situations. So being able to use your social media or Twitch or, you know, whatever it may be, to show who you are. I think is an awesome opportunity for guys. And, obviously, with, you know, the opportunity, bad things can come in good income. So you gotta have some management. You know, the right head on your shoulders when you're approaching it. But from, like, a recruiting standpoint, or, like, the agent, you know, to college kids standpoint. Social media, I don't think has changed a whole lot. You know, I think there's a lot of people that put all rankings and this and the NFL teams don't listen to any of that. At the end of the day, it's all media based, and fan based. And, you know, if you wanna buy into it, you can. But realistically, like, all every single team is making their own decision off of a ton of reports and a ton of conversations about every single player. So the media and stuff is fun, and it's like it's, you know, cool to definitely follow and get big name and highlights and this and that. But from the team perspective, they don't let any of that out at the end of the day anyway. So it's kinda hard to, like, relay to some of the families and some of the players even of, like, yeah, like, you know, maybe PFF has you as the number one player, but maybe only ten teams have you as the number one player. And the other, you know, twenty two dome. Right? Or, like and again, in the draft, all it takes is one team to really like you anyways. But it's just every team has a different philosophy, has different you know, play style has different fit. And so every team's gonna have a different opinion on every player. So I guess I just like, breaking them all up. I love the NILI because it gives us an opportunity to and that that's the other thing I didn't mention is, like, from a kid's perspective, I love it because, like, Now a kid can be a freshman in college. He can sign with me, work with me and my team, and he gets this trial period. He gets to really work with us over a year, two years, three years, whatever it may be to really find out, like, hey, these are the guys that I wanna go into my professional career with. Or maybe you work with somebody for a year, and it's like, hey, this wasn't the right fit and have great communication. I'm gonna, you know, venture off to my other people that I had thought were really good. And, you know, I didn't go with. And I don't think guys should be switching all the time, but at the end of the day, I think it's really important for you to know who your people are, and it gives, you know, the college guys, high school, kids, an opportunity to, hey, you know, I go in there and tell you all these things that me, myself, and my team can do. Alright. Give me twelve months, give me twenty four months to show it to you as well. And if I can't do it, then, you know, then, you know, then it was just smoke. And So I think there's a lot of times in our business. There can be just smoke, and it takes a little time. And in the past, I think guys would sign with an agent, get into their year and then find out that stuff would smoke three years into their rookie year. And now they're trying to find a new agent for their second for their second contract rather than, you know, doing that a little earlier, work with your agent in college, and if he's everything that, you know, you guys have talked about and what you want, then weight off your shoulders, can just go to work every day and, you know, your family and you are taken care of. And if it's not, then no skin off your back, and you're able to break ties in a, you know, nice kind way and, you know, try something else on a different option. Yeah. It's fascinating, man. When you're sharing that I was thinking about, like, for you, saying no has to be such a powerful tool for the amount of Yeah. For the amount of, you know, opportunities there are to pursue. And then there are a lot of opportunities pursuing your clients. Also, when I'm hearing you say that, it's like, you know, there's a Mark Twain quote that he who grabs the cat by his tail can learn something he could learn no other way. There's value to experience. So I think it'd be really hard to get some of these kids to realize the gravity of the decision they're making in choosing an agent because at the point, they might only have one shot of it. Yeah. If you're again, if you're It's it's not I don't wanna say rare, but every NFL player's goal has to be to get to a second or third contract. That's where, you know, you're making the guap of your money. That's where you're, you know, really separating yourself. Right? Like, getting way out of your shoulders. So for, player to make the wrong decision on your first agent, you're in your rookie career, like, that hurts. Like, it's not the best thing that you wanna do. And so you have an opportunity. Sorry. I used to work. But for you to have that opportunity in college to, you know, take a, like, a test runner or a trial run. And, you know, for me, like, I love it because I think myself and my team are gonna knock it out of the park. I don't really whenever you sign us, like, I'm very confident that we don't oversell, we don't, you know, bluff anything like what we put out there is what we can do. And so I think we're gonna do a good work. But it gives that, you know, that kid a chance to, get the kid a chance to, you know, have the have the trial run, have the test period to it with somebody before, you know, they jump into their actual career because I mean, there's, like you said, like, the agent world is behind the scenes a lot. Like, and Brandon maybe can attest to this too, but, like, you're if you ever got a four year contract, you're you're one and you're two, like, there's not a whole lot that you're gonna see from like a physical standpoint what your agents doing unless things are going bad. Like, if you've got an injury or you're getting cut or, you know, maybe some issues with the team where you need a conversation, like, When things are going good, your year one and year two, there's a ton of conversations that are being had. There's a lot of work that's being had, but it's all in the background. Like, you don't really notice it on a daily basis. Like, when Brandon was in Carolina, like, you know, Mike is talking to Rivera or he's, you know, talking to, the front office from the GM or, you know, the cap guy or their perspective, you know, every week to two weeks, three weeks, just to have those conversations, keep the relationship strong and to, you know, have your foot in the door. Right? And that's stuff that we might talk to Brandon about, but he's not gonna see any of that provision come until he gets that opportunity, you know, like, what I think in his career, I'll let him speak on it, but gets that opportunity to sign a new deal and, you know, get a maybe a little bit of an advantage or a little bit of something that other people might have not gotten in the past. So you know, I think that the longer you can work with someone, the more you can see if it's a good fit and if they're doing good work. And the NIL, you know, Door has opened up guys to start that early. Sure. I mean, there's kids in, you know, freshman in high school that, you know, There's not much I can do for you right now, but we can talk about a lot. And when the time comes, like, you know, we can strike. And if but So, you know, talking about like that that proven method and whatnot, do you do you almost use that as like a sales tactic when you're trying to sell to people? Because like, for me as a client, if you, essentially, you explaining this this whole situation to, you know, to a player Like, if I heard that if I heard that from, you know, somebody I'm talking like, you know, this this time for you is essentially a trial period, you know, we'll we'll help you out, you know, during high school college. And then when it comes to the NFL, like, if you, like, essentially, like, let let us prove you are worth. Like, I heard that from somebody. That to me, that's gonna hold weight. So I was just curious if you actually use that when Yeah. Recruiting. We definitely do, but it's different from you know, who you're talking to and what their what their other offers are. Right? So if if I'm speaking to you and, you know, you're cool with your trial period and this and that. Like, I have to go and make you money from the jump, right, where other people might be coming in with with money already. And so I think there's there's always a misunderstanding of, like, can I get out of working with you or if I can, you know, in in that sense, where I think that there's other, you know, agents that come in and say, hey, you know, sign with me, Brandon? I got fifty thousand for you right now. And you haven't done anything yet. Right? And so at that point, then it's like, almost not a trial run anymore. Like, you're kinda in the thick of it. And, you know, I don't know contract wise if you're getting out of it. I definitely speak to players with that a lot of times, but that's me coming to you almost with zero. And then let's let's run. So you have to like me and like my team to now give me a month. Give me two months. Give me three months versus, hey, here's the money in the bag right now. And now it's it's called a marketing guarantee. And so, like, here's the money right now. And then after I give it to you, now my team has to go out and make that money back. Wow. And so there's different, you know, perspectives to it. I don't like the I see it as kinda like a credit in a way. And I don't like to, you know, put debt on anybody or anything like that in any sorts. I'd rather, hey, like, this is what I think we can make you, and now let our team go do it. And if we don't do it, then There you go. Rather than Harry, here's the x amount of money, and then we get a couple months down the road. It's like, well, your name wasn't big enough. Didn't have this or that. So we haven't made that money back yet, and you technically have to give it back to us or not go anywhere. You guys you guys have been really generous with your time. Be before I let you go, is are there like one or two books other than holy books that really make their ways around, you know, either the NFL lock room or the agency world? Yes. There is for me. Let me find it really quick. You know, because I I've I've read all the articles about, like, oh, like, the entire team is reading, Ryan Holidays, the obstacle is the way. Like, I hear stuff like that, and I I see him in, like, random articles, but I'm curious from your firsthand experience if they're, like, you know, these books that a lot of people are reading. Or I I'm, like, if Jamie in your world, like, everyone's talking about Rich Paul's book right now. Yeah. I'd say there's a book called crunching Numbers, by Jason Fitzgerald. And I think that that's kinda like that's where I started off was like my very first kinda introductory to contracts and, the bare basics of it all. Right? Like, just knowing like, what a p five was and stuff like that. It doesn't necessarily go into, like, the psychology or, like, the, you know, background of being an agent, more of just like the contract side of it. But I really like that book because it got me prepared for the NFL PA test and a lot of a lot of times, like, the stuff that matters. Right? Like, your contract at the end of the day, like, how I represent you on the field is what matters most. What doesn't necessarily matters, how many concerts we go to, or, you know, how many fun things that are, you know, sweet for you that I were able to get you in if I can't represent you at the highest level, none of that stuff matters. So I I I was told to read crunching numbers, and that was the first book that I'd read off the bat. But, that's one that stood out to me. Awesome, man. Right now about you. I don't know if there's like one book in particular. So how how I kind of see it is somebody has, you know, somebody read a book and then they're sharing their personal experience kinda with you or like they're they they share that book with you. Don't think there's one that was more so all encompassing or Yeah. Sure. You know, majority of the people read one book. It was always like, oh, I read this book and it helped me with psychology or it helped me with dealing with failure and whatnot. So, like, it's kinda more, like, generalizing it or, like, making it more specific to you or your experiences. Does that makes any sense? Yeah. For sure. Was there was there one book that you were recommended by by a teammate? Well, I don't know. Have you read the alchemist? Oh, yeah. Yes. I've heard that one. That's very foundational for anyone living. Yeah. I mean, I've I've heard that one come up a bunch and I've I've kinda wanted to read it. And I just haven't made priority priority too. But I I mean, I have heard that one come up a lot. I'll share, about the outputs, but I thought was so interesting is, like, Yeah. I've read it twice. I read it when I was, like, and I was twenty years old, and I read it again at, like, twenty eight or something. And, I thought was so interesting. The first time I read it, I thought it was a a book about a guy pursuing his own destiny. That's what I thought when I was twenty. And then when I was, like, twenty eight or something, I realized that it's actually about, like, a destiny pursuing a guy Like, all of these amazing things are unfolding for the main character throughout the book. And really all he's doing is just taking the next step and everything's working itself I'm buying it right now as we speak. Yeah. We'll, we'll catch up, in three weeks. Okay. We'll we'll do this and review the book. Who, who who about that? Paulo Quello, Brazilian. I can send it to you. Right? When when is when when when are they coming up? It's a good question. I haven't reached out to him, but he has he is on my I my list. So we'll send him this clip, and then he'll be on soon. Cool. Yeah. You guys coming on the show guys. It was awesome to hear your mirror stories, which I don't you guys get enough credit for, and then also the underside of some of the things that people don't see both from this work and the agency world. Yeah. I've been to mine. Good. Talk soon, guys. Hello. Thanks for joining today. That was NFL agent Jamie Motin, and former NFL player. Brandon Zillstra talking about their unexpected and unlikely experiences rising to the highest levels of their organizations. What I thought was so cool about it was that how much of what they shared has nothing to do with being an NFL agent or player. So I hope you enjoyed the show. Definitely let them know if you have any comments questions or feedback, we'll be happy to connect.