AI in Education Can Democratize Expertise—But Only If Systems Evolve

Hi, everyone. Michael Horn here. What you're about to hear is a conversation that Diane and I recorded with John Bailey as part of our series exploring the impact of AI on education from the good to the bad. Here are two things that grabbed me about this episode that you're about to hear. First, John made the point that this technology is really different from anything we've seen before, specifically how these large language models could, from the get go, produce artifacts of work that would rival what an entry level person in a variety of professions would create, and how we're just scratching the surface of their capabilities. And most people don't even realize that yet. So what could this mean for education? Second was John's observation that just because we can do something faster doesn't mean it's being done better. Said differently, making the wrong work more efficient isn't necessarily the right solution. Now when we finished up the interview, I had several reflections. But one I wanted to share with you now is this. John's big framing is that through AI, everyone now has access to an expert in virtually every field. So if the Internet democratized access to information, the analogy essentially is AI is democratizing access to expertise. But I'm curious if someone isn't as skilled or knowledgeable or experienced as John, would they know what to do with or how to use such an expert at their fingertips? I'm excited to be in conversation with Diane for more sense making after we've talked with a number of people, And we'd love to hear your thoughts and reflection, so please, please share, whether over social media or by dropping us an email through my website at michael b horn dot com. But for now, I hope you enjoy this conversation on Class Disrupted. This is Class Disrupted season six. Oh. And the first I know. Can you believe it? The first of our AI interviews, and we've in this case, we have the first best, person, John Bailey, as our guest. Hey, Michael. Hey, Diane. Good to see you. It is always great to see you. There's so many things we could talk about, but I'm really eager to jump in today to our topics. So, we're gonna go there right away. When we kicked off last season of of this podcast, Class Direct Disrupted, we said that one of the things that we really wanted to delve deeper into was our curiosity around AI, and it's hard not to be curious about AI right now. And in our most recent episode, we were pretty straightforward about kind of where each of us are at this point in time and our understanding and our perspectives. And, we overviewed some of the kind of current debates that are taking place specifically around education and AI. And today, we get to go deeper with someone who, I think you'll agree with me, frankly, knows a lot more about AI than both of us. So I agree with that. I think it's very fair. It's one of the many reasons I'm excited for this conversation, because as you said, it's gonna be the first of many where we bring folks on who frankly have very different views from each other around the impact of AI, sometimes from ourselves as well. And so to start this, we're welcoming back someone to the show who's been with us, I think, twice before. So this is like a three peat, if if you will. So he's clearly one of our favorites, none other than John Bailey. It's so so good to be on. Congrats. Six seasons. That's huge. Yeah. We're still picking. Right? Thank you. And just in case, anyone has missed John previously, quick quick background here. John's served in many, many posts in the state and federal government around education and domestic policy more generally. He's a fellow at AEI. He holds numerous posts supporting different foundations. I could go on and on and on. But what some people might not know, John, is that you originally entered education as an expert on technology, and ed. And, you know, we'll hear that expertise coming through because you have gone deep in the world of AI and how it's gonna impact education. And so welcome. We are so excited to have you back. Oh my gosh. I'm so excited, to be here, and I just admire both of you. And I've learned so much from you. So it's so good to be be on the on the show today. Well, before we get into a series of questions we have for you, we'd love to just start with, like, how, I guess, how, and maybe it's a how, why, did you go so deep into AI specifically? You know? We we know you have a lot of experience with sort of frontier models, and, maybe maybe you can describe that term for us as well as we sort of, begin this conversation. But tell us how you and, you know, jumped into the deep end and and come to this conversation. Yeah. That was a it's such a good question. And it and it's also like, my point of entry into this was, was interesting because as you mentioned, I've been involved in, a lot of technology and policy intersections for a number of years, including in education. And and if I have to admit, like, I've been part of a lot of the hype of, like, we really think technology can personalized learning, and and often that promise was just unmet. And and I I think there was, like, potential there, but it was really hard to actualize that potential. And, and so I just wanna admit upfront. Like, I was part of that cycle for a number of years. And and then what happened was when ChatChiuBT came out in December of twenty twenty two, everyone had sort of, like, a moment of Chatuchy b t. And for for me, it wasn't getting it to write a song or, you know, a rap song or or a press release. It was, I was sitting next to someone in, in with a venture team, and I said, what is, like, what is an email you would ask an associate to do to write a draft term sheet? And she gave me three sentences. I put it in a chat, and it spit back something that she said was a good first draft. Good enough for her that she would actually run with it and edit it. And I was like, oh, this is very different. And then it just sort of started this process of seeing, like, what else could it do? And it just became insanely fun to kinda play with it. And then I was posting a lot of this on Twitter, and that caught the attention of some of the AI companies, and then they gave me early access. So I got to to play with, something called code interpreter for OpenAI, which was the ability of analyzing spreadsheets and data files, and then did some work with Google and beta testing Bard and a handful of other things as well. And so, I get to to work with some of the companies now on safety and alignment testing, but also seeing kind of a little bit what's over the horizon. Google notebook LM, I've been playing with for the better part of, over a year and giving them some feedback on it. So I I think what's happened though is that for me, this feels very, very different from all the other technologies I've been exposed to at least over the last twenty years. And and that has, like, caught my excitement. Like, I've rearranged my entire work portfolio to spend more time on this just because I it's rare to see something that I think is gonna be so transformative. I don't think that's gonna be immediate. I think that's gonna play out over years and over decades. But also just the pace at which this technology is improving, and new capabilities are being introduced is something like I've never experienced. In just the last two weeks of December, you saw so many announcements from OpenAI and Google that it it you can't even wrap your heads around it. So, better models that do deeper reasoning, you have, it did not get a lot of attention, but, OpenAI released, vision understanding. So now you can use your camera. And so I walked around a farmer's market, and it analyzed all the the produce and the meats, and it was giving me recipes on the fly. Just amazing. We were we were playing with it at holiday dinner table. Yeah. And just, like, what what's on the table and what are you know? And and I think the amazing thing was with my eighty two year old mother-in-law. Oh, wow. Was, like, into it and so excited and wanted to us to get it on her phone so she could go show her friend. Yeah. Yeah. It's Wow. I mean, it just feels different. This feels it it feels like something I wanna just dedicate a lot more time and attention to to understanding it. Both the benefits, lots of risks, lots of challenges on it, but it just like I I've seen, you know, my mom's using it to your point. Like, it's just an advanced voice in the style of is just great entertainment for kids too with telling stories and whatnot. So And my kids Anyway, so that's my journey into this space. My kids have started to leapfrog me by just taking their search inquiries right to chat chat GPT, at themselves and then get frustrated with, some of the answers. But let's dive in then, John, because you're getting to see a lot of these large language models clearly up close. You're getting to see experiment and help, advise these companies that are at the leading edge in many cases. And I think what we wanna do in these conversations, frankly, is have both the advocates for and skeptics of AI, and you clearly have a little bit of both from what you just said. Make the case for both sides. You know? How's it gonna impact positively? How's it gonna impact negatively? So we can start to unpack the contours and figure out where the puck's really going in classrooms and schools. And so I'd love you to start with this, which is to make the argument for how AI is going to positively impact education first. So leave aside your concerns and skepticisms for a moment. And in your mind, like, what's the bull case, if you will, for AI? One is I I think you have to a lot I've I've been wrestling with this a little bit. I think most of the other technologies up until this point have been about democratizing access to information. So that's everything from the printing press to the computer, with, like, CDs and with discs, to then the Internet. The Internet democratized access to Wikipedia and you could get any information you want, within your fingertips for almost no cost whatsoever. What I think is different about this technology is that it's it's access to expertise, and it's driving the cost of accessing expertise almost to zero. And the way to think about that is that these general purpose technologies, you can give them sort of a role, a persona to adopt. So they could be a curriculum expert. They could be a lesson planning expert. They could be a tutoring. And that's all done using natural language, English language, and that unlocks this expertise that can take this vast amounts of information that's in his training set or whatever specific types of information you give it, and it can apply that expertise towards different, you know, Michael, in your case, jobs to be done. And and so for the first time, teachers have experts available at their fingertips just typing to them the way they would type to a consultant. So give me a lesson plan. Here's an IEP of a student. Help me develop three lessons that I can use for that student that's based on their learning challenges and the interest that they care about. So I think that's gonna unlock both it's gonna say it's gonna be an enormous productivity tool for teachers potentially. I think it's also gonna be an amazing tutoring mechanism for a lot of students as well, not just because they'll be able to type to the student, but as we were just talking about, this advanced voice is very amazing in terms of the way it can be very empathetic and encouraging and sort of prompting and pushing students. It can analyze their voice. And then this vision understanding, which was just sort of introduced. I Google's had this in a studio kind of lab format for a couple months now, but I think that's good to just unlock. Imagine a student be able to do a project and presentation and having an AI system give them feedback and encouragement. I that looks like science fiction two years ago, and it feels like it's very much within the realm of possibility. Maybe not right now, but you see the building blocks for where that could actually be assembled into a pretty powerful set of tools for both teachers as well as students. So, John, when you when you step back from everything you sort of just described of what's possible in schools, teachers well, you didn't say schools. So among teachers and students, I sort of, mental mapped a school on top of that concept. What part of that do you actually believe is gonna be real, you know, for students and teachers and and why? And maybe I think you're probably gonna put a timeline on it too is my guess based on what what you're saying. Yeah. I think I mean, if if other industries are a bit of a road map here, what you're seeing in almost all the other sectors is that where AI is getting deployed first is is a lot of back office functions. It it it it's in their IT shops with coding, and we don't have that in education. But there are other lot of back office things where, again, the benefits can be pretty high, and the risks of it being wrong are a little bit less than if, like, it's engaging in a tutoring lesson with a student and hallucinating. That's like high risk. Right? And so, you know, I I suspect we'll see a lot more sort of back office improving parent communications. I think we could see this, you know, beginning. There there's already been, you know, decades of legacy of trying to use AI or technology, computer based scoring for assessments. I could imagine that. And then I think you're gonna see it roll out with a a handful of tools for teachers. You're seeing companies like that already with, like, brisk teaching. But also, I mean, all these capabilities we were just talking about with Google, I mean, they if the moment they flick a switch and roll that out over Google Classroom, that's bringing AI into sixty, sixty five percent of classrooms and teachers around the country. And and so I think what you're gonna see is a lot of teacher productivity tools. And then over the next, we call it two to five years, a lot more sort of student facing things. As those technologies mature and as we build more robust products around it that have some of the safeguards that you want and need, that ensure accuracy and quality, as well as safety, I think, for students as well. So I think there'll be a lot of potential, but I think we'll roll it out to students over a longer period of time. Meanwhile, like, the teacher productivity, you know, enhancements for this could be pretty huge immediately. It's interesting to think about building off that Google Classroom platform and just the access, right, that that solves in terms of distribution that perhaps historical products have struggled with, in schools and gaining access, to teachers and students. Let's turn to the other side for a moment, John, and just, like, where is AI not going to help things with teachers, students, schools learning? You know, what what what's sort of the, the the place that people are dreaming up right now that AI is gonna do something and you're like, I I I just don't buy it? Oh, interesting. Don't buy. That's a different I where I was gonna go, I worry a little bit of just because something done faster doesn't mean it's done better. And I know, like, if any of the white papers are, like, teachers should always be in the loop, and teachers should always use their judgment. But teachers are also human. And I I think one of the aspects of human is that if you're overworked and you're tired, sometimes the fastest response is the one you go with just because you're just you're trying to maximize your time. And that's one of the reasons we see teachers using, like, not great instructional quality resources from Pinterest, you know, and from teacher pay teachers and from some of these other websites. So that that is a problem that exists now that I worry AI will exasperate. You know, if you're if you're a teacher and say, give me a lesson plan on literacy on or reading or something of reading in the third grade, you have no idea if that's based on the science of reading, if it's based on if it's aligned to your curriculum, if it's adding coherence. And so there there could be a a sense of this instead of, really augmenting a teacher's judgment, it could it can lessen it. In the same way that I think we worry about this with students, that part of the way you learn is through struggle. And struggle comes with not writing a perfect first draft. It comes from the first draft, the second draft, and the iterations and revisions on top of it. And I worry that the moment, like, students had just have a button that can automatically improve a paper, a paragraph, or a sentence, they're atrophying a muscle that is really critically important for this, you know, going forward. And so, and then lastly, you know, we're in the midst of this this national discourse and debate right now about social media and phones, and is that leading to more social isolation, loneliness, and mental health issues with young people. And inject into this these AI tools that I I think as much as people say this will never happen, the the risk of an AI companion where you're talking, literally talking to an AI that's empathetic and warm and adopting personas, and that's gonna be easier than the friction of talking to real life people. And so I worry that there's a scenario where this AI companions, will start leading to exacerbating, the social disconnectedness and divide. And that is something that, you know, if you look at kind of the headlines that we've already had a couple cases with some tragic situations with kids who have committed suicide, I don't think it was because entirely of the AI, but the AI was a contributing factor in that. And that's something I think if we wanna get ahead of where we are in the social media debate now, that's that's something we should be thinking about researching and adding some guardrails to as well. John, I, I'm wondering as you're sharing these perspectives, how you think about I guess, what's coming up for me is, I feel like, the the main structures of school and education are still in place. And I agree with you. Like, the efficiency plays are the first places people go. And does AI sort of risk reinforcing the existing model of school and education because it will make it more efficient. So, like, if teachers were just, like, barely, barely holding on, and now we can keep everything sort of the same, but just give them this, like, boost of efficiency, we can keep things the way that they were. And, obviously, I'm biased because, you know, I wanna Yeah. Change up. You wanna pull apart everything. But I'm curious just how you think about that, especially as things will unfold over time and, like, the easy places to start and the asymmetry of adoption too. You know? I mean, not every teacher in America has even ever logged into chat GPT before. And then there's some that are, like, power users at this point. Yeah. I mean, I mean, a common theme for both of your works and including over the six years you've done the series too has been you know, we have this system and in institutions within the system that are remarkably resistant to change. And, and and I think what we've seen is, like, technology doesn't change a system. The systems have to change to accommodate and harness and leverage the benefits of whatever technology or or sort of new innovations been introduced to it. And so I'm a little skeptical there. I I think you're gonna have capabilities of AI outpacing the institution's ability to harness that. It's gonna take time, to figure out what that looks like and what that means going forward. I do I I come back though, you know, if to this idea of, like, it's access to expertise. And, and I wonder if that mental model starts unlocking things as well. But if you're a school principal, all of a sudden you have a market a a parent communication marketing expert just by asking it to be that persona and then giving it some tasks to do. And if you're a teacher, it means you all of a sudden you every teacher in America can have a teaching assistant, like a a TA that is available to help, on a variety of different tasks. And going back to what Michael's point was saying with, like, Google Classroom, imagine if you're a teacher, you're in Google Classroom, and you have your TA that's able to look at student folders and and and just answer questions you have. Like, I see, like, John and Michael are really struggling in algebra. What are some ways I could put them in a small group and give them an an assignment that would resonate with both of their interests and help them scaffold into the next lesson. That was impossible to do before. Like, that those three sentences could easily do that. And and that's why I think you're gonna see this idea of assistance, very much kinda entering, not just the education narrative, but also the, the more sort of broader, corporate landscape as well. Where you see that also, by the way, is is a little bit in how OpenAI is thinking about the pricing for this. There was an OpenAI model, and most people probably didn't see it. The most robust, smartest, and the one that has the most reasoning, and they're charging two hundred dollars a month for that. And most people are like, oh my gosh. Like, I would never pay two hundred dollars a month, for software. And it's because it's the wrong way to think about this as a software. The way to think about it is, well, you easily spend that much on a consultant or in a part time, you know, staff person. So OpenAI is even adopting almost like a labor market pricing strategy for the expertise that they're giving you. And so I think this is an amazing thing for schools to think about at time and tight budgets is, you know, again, if you wanna maximize your teachers, how can this fill different types of labor market roles in the education system to enhance and support teachers, in the limited staff given budget, tensions that are gonna be facing, coming out in the next couple of years here. It it's interesting hearing you say that and draw that analogy, John, because, actually, Clay Christensen, before he passed away, one of the big interests he had was how do you scale coaching models in education, in health care, in lots of these sort of very social, realms, as the recipe, if you will, for sustained behavior change and success and things of that nature. Never got to really dig into it and write about it. But as I'm hearing you talk about this, it suggests that maybe a disruption of that might be afoot. I guess that's the question I wanna lean into, though, as well, which is you you named a few things that this could hurt. And so the flip side of it being a great coach is that it might take away social interaction. Right? Or you talked about essay writing and that, you know, actually, the learning is in the process, right, of of doing it in revision and sort of pushing the easy button, if you will, right, jumps you ahead to the product, but not necessarily the learning and the struggle from it. I guess what I'm curious about and and I'm gonna borrow an analogy that Brewer Saxberg, former chief learning scientist, I think, was his title at at CZI, the Chan Zuckerberg initiative and, you know, at Kaplan and k twelve and and variety of places. He talked a lot about how Aristotle back in the day worried a lot about as, the written word became a thing that people weren't going to be able to memorize Homeric length epic poems anymore. Aristotle was absolutely right, and I don't know that we regret, right, the fact that most of us can't Speak for yourself, Michael. Yeah. Well, two I and I could You know? You know, two of the three here could do it, but I can't. So but the question, I guess, would be, you know, of these things that might hurt, what you're really gonna are are they still gonna matter in the future, or are there gonna be other things that we you know, other behaviors or things that are more relevant in the future? And and how do you think about sort of that substitution, versus ease, versus actually, like, really you know, frankly, I think when you talk about social interaction, that could be forget about disruptive. That could be quite destructive. No. It's it's a great question. It's a good point. It's also this is a this is an area where some of the best studies of this are happening in the, the labor market and looking at, like, how is AI changing. There's just one, study I was just reading today with, Larry Summers and, and Deming from Harvard that are looking at, you know, AI. One of one of the things that's they're finding is AI is chipping away at some of the entry level jobs. It is for the same reason that, you know, you don't like, if I'm in congress, now all of a sudden, I don't need an intern to just summarize legislation. I have something that could summarize it for me better in five seconds. And that actually hurts, that intern, because they're not developing the skills of reading legislation and analyzing and summarizing it. But it also means the other thing that they're talking about a labor market, sort of terminology is that it's it's really raising the skills for those entry level jobs. Now you're not expected to summarize. Now you're expected to do more. They're in in in a higher level of cognitive functions with it. And so, that that's interesting, but I also mean, that's gonna place a huge strain on our education system. Like, if you're looking at just the results of Tim's and NAEP and where kids are, they're not in that higher cognitive function in terms of being able to ask those questions or do those those capabilities. And so in many ways, I think if this is gonna change the future of work and gonna raise, the level of what's expected, that's gonna put more strain on our education system to make sure that we get kids that are capable of doing all those different things. I think about that with myself. Like, I'm not like, there are many people who are Excel gurus, very good at analyzing data, and they do p tests and other other things that statistical things that are very important, and I I would not be able to do. And, and this was one of the first experiences with code interpreter at with OpenAI is that all of a sudden, I had a again, an expert, a data analyst who could do that for me. But what that meant is that for work, I can no longer say, well, that it's not something I can do. Now I could do it because I had an analyst that could help me with it. And that in some ways, don't tell my employers this, but, like, now that could, like, raise their expectations for for me as well. But I have to get smart on the type of questions and the type of direction, to give it in order to get the answers that I can use to synthesize into some sort of response. So, anyway, I think this is gonna be a very messy way it's gonna change the labor markets, but what I it just it feels like it's lowering, the floor in many respects of, an access to these higher cognitive tasks, which in turn then raises expectations in a lot of different ways. And that's very powerful, but it's also I think it'd probably a huge strain on our human capital systems. John Did that answer your question? Yeah. Yeah. I think it does. Before, I think Diane has another set of questions. But before we go there, just one quick follow-up, which is it strikes me that then you knowing that you can ask those sorts of questions and sort of having a sense of the contours, right, of, like, what are relevant questions, what are what what what is knowledge base that is out there that I could ask this in meaningful ways and and how to structure it. Like, those are topics that I I might not need to know all the mechanics of how to do it, but I need to know that they are questions that can be asked and the relevant place to ask them. Is that is that a where where am I on or off on that? Yeah. I think that's right. And also, again, this is where AI is amazing. Like, you could give it a spreadsheet and say, what are twenty questions you can ask with this? Or give me twenty insights that you glean from it. If you don't know where to like, I I've started, again, treating a lot of AI people will tell you not to do this. But if you treat it if you anthropop if you treat it a little bit almost as if you're talking to a person, it does unlock a lot of capabilities. There's risks of doing that. But, also, I just find sometimes, like, I wanna do x. Like, give me the prompt in which to do that, or I wanna do y. Like, what are ask me all the questions you need to be able to answer that. And then it asked me ten questions and then spits back an answer. I just helped someone with, she's coming up with a name for social impact advisory firm. So we created a little GBT and AI assistant that was a brand adviser, and it asked her questions the way a brand adviser would, and then it spit back twenty names and one of them she's going with. And so, like, that's I mean, it was, like, incredible. But, again, she had experts expertise that could ask questions and facilitate a conversation to unlock some of her thoughts and and, preferences and then spit back an answer from it. So much there, especially given my my current focus of sort of fifteen to twenty five year olds and, who are gonna be intensely impacted by, I think, every are already intensely, I think, impacted by everything you're talking about. I wanna flip over to policy, and I wanna come at it from the angle of, you know, most people think about AI policy around safety and, you know, what are we controlling and what are we, you know, protecting people from, etcetera. But let's come from the other direction that you sort of introduced a little bit ago about the structure of education in schools. We've got some pretty interesting policy movement happening in education right now. We are seeing the rise of ESAs or educational savings account, which, you know, puts money in the hands of families to spend it where they wanna spend it. We're seeing a lot of states adopt sort of portraits of a graduate or graduate profiles that that are these more inclusive holistic views of, like, what someone should be able to graduate, knowing, doing, being able to do, and an openness to how they actually get to that place and the different pathways. Talk to me about, like, those things going on sort of in the policy world and AI happening over here. Is that kind of the intersection where we could sort of start seeing some structural differences? And and, again, I'll I'll tell my like, a more user centered approach to educate you know, a student centered approach potentially. So I'm curious your thoughts there. No. I I I think it could. I I think it's a it's a yes it's a yes spot in in some ways. The yes is, you know, it's it's I I think there's a whole class of ways of using AI that is about navigating and navigating really complex systems. And ESAs are one of those. And I think, you know, I I one of the first GBTs I built on OpenAI to demo this was I I took a bite like, if you go to Arizona's ESA, it's it's like two websites. There's a weird random Excel file of expenses and then PDFs that like a seventy eight eight page PDF. And and again, that was the best that team could do with limited resources and also with the limited technologies. And I just put that into a GBT and all of a sudden it was a a bilingual parent friendly navigator. And if you said, can I use funds for Sony PlayStation? It didn't say no. You're a terrible parent. It it used warm empathetic letter, answers to say, like, no. You can't, and here's the reasons why, but here's what you can do. And it was all conversational. And I I think this friction of dealing with education systems and education policy could be immensely improved by using AI. Another example, I have a friend, like, she's in, so her she has kids that are in a school district, and they send these terrible absentee reports. And I say terrible, it's like their her daughter's name is capitalized, so it's like shouting. And then it's like, has missed six days of school. It's very and it it is it it is reading reading like a hostage like script. It's like your daughter has missed six days of school. It's very important for her to go to school. We are here to help you. And then it does this weird bar chart at the bottom that's, like, meaningless. And, like, I just gave it to ChatChiBT as an image and say make this better and give three questions a parent could ask their kid for why they might be absent. Amazing. It it was like and that that I did in a Uber ride crossing the key bridge in the Washington DC. Like, you know, that's an amazing set of powerful tools that can remove friction and help improve, the system to make it work better for parents and for kids and also teachers and administrators too. So the but on all this is, like, I think that's gonna be powerful and it's gonna make policy easier. I'm I'm still until we create more flexible ways for, teachers to teach, for students to learn, and students to engage in different types of learning experiences, I I just think we're gonna end up boxing and limiting, a lot of this technology capabilities. On the the portraits of a graduate, I do think, like, again, an easy navigator on this is to take student work and student interest and student grades and say, I'm not really sure where to go. Like, help me ask me the ten questions I need to figure out. Should I pursue an apprenticeship program, a two year degree, or a four year degree? It feels like, again, we're very close to be able to do something that, you know, it may not be perfect, but it's more bet it's much better than what the vast majority of students have access to right now. And if it helps them make a better decision in this process and pick a better path that's based on their interests and their passions and their skills and their their abilities, that's great. Like, we should do everything we can to help maximize that. Awesome. Maybe just to round out, anything what what policy do you think we should be keeping be worrying about? What should we be thinking about? What should we be paying attention to? Where do I know you spend a lot of time thinking about policy. So I do. Yeah. A little bit a little bit of policy. So one is that congress is gonna move very slow. We thankfully, though I I in this day and age of such, polarization in in, in so many of our politics, There are two remarkable bipartisan roadmaps. One from the senate, senator Young and senator Schumer, introduced. And then there was a house report that got reduced introduced right before, break that is also bipartisan. Remarkably good. It's two hundred eighteen pages. And they have a lot that I I take great comfort in the fact that there's a bipartisan durable consensus. It'll take time to enact that. That's okay. It'll take time. At least we have a little bit of a pathway on that. The thing I think for most of your listeners to really pay attention to is what's happening at the state level. And there I mean, just last year, we saw close to four hundred something bills that were introduced at the state level. Everything from dealing with deep fakes to, copyright issues to regulating the models themselves. The most famous one was in California. And and those don't, on the surface, look like they have anything to do with education, but they do. If that California bill had passed, that that limits in many respects the types of models that would be available for, for teachers and for students. There's another bill similarly in Texas right now that's being debated. And so I I think we need to pay more attention to what's going on at the state level because that is gonna either restrict or, or enable access to a bunch of these different types of tools in in the models. I I think, Diane, you had mentioned too in one of the previous questions, like, most people haven't used Chat GbT, and I think that's that's exactly right. But I think what's gonna start happening is Chat GbT and Google Gemini are gonna come to where people live already. And you're seeing that with Chat GbT being integrated into Apple's iPhone that, you know, the the I think for the vast majority of people in the country, their first experience with ChaChaPT is gonna be through their iPhone. And I think for a whole another set, especially teachers, their first experience is gonna be using one of the AI tools on Google. And that's okay. But, again, what's gonna either, restrict or expand access to those different types of tools are gonna be these laws that are, either restricting or adding more scrutiny to the models themselves. And what I will say there is I I don't think anyone's cracked the code on how to best regulate this. Whatever, policymakers think they have, the models improve or they've done something that they didn't think was possible. And and, like, for the longest time, policymakers are like, we have to restrict these powerful models and and and it's based on computing with some astronomical number. And then on on December twenty fourth, China announces something called DeepSeek that is pretty much as good as Chachibuty four and LAMA three, and they did it with far less computing power. And so that would slip in underneath as, like, an exception. And and and I I think policymakers are really wrestling with the best way of thinking about this and and restricting it. So, anyway, I would do more of that. You're gonna see a lot of other attention to AI literacy. I I tend to be, I think these literacy efforts are great, but I have lived through we need tech literacy. We need weekly literacy. Reporting for everyone. Do you remember? It it is it is felt like it this is by no means to disrespect folks that are pushing this that like, every new technology gets attached to literacy component to it. It is not really clear we got much from tech literacy back in the two thousands or, yeah, or some of the other things. And so maybe there's a way to make sure that we get right what we got wrong before, but I don't think that's gonna be the quite the silver bullet, that we need it to be. This has been really such a good play way to start. Michael, do you have anything else you wanna, Thanks, John. This has been really tremendous overview of a number of currents that I know both of us have been making notes on the side as you've been talking, and we're gonna wanna dig in more. Maybe let's pivot away from the topic, that we've been delving in as we wrap up here. And just, John, what have you been reading, listening to, watching outside of the AI education conversation? Hopefully, AI is not dominating every single thing, although I won't be surprised if you give us some movie or fiction or something like that with AI, coursed in its veins. So what what what's on your list? Oh my gosh. What is, unfortunately, it is like it is not it's not unfortunate. It's just I have I found myself waking up at, like, five AM, like, two years ago just thinking about this. And so, like, all of a sudden, you're reading books on, you know, intelligence and human expertise and human psychology because you're trying to understand, like, intelligence and what is what makes something intelligent and that so, anyway, that's nerdy stuff. The new Henry Kissinger book, Craig Mundy, the Genesis book has also been good. I I've been reading, David Brooks' book, how to get to know someone, which I sort of had missed the first time it had come out, but it I I think it also it that has an AI played too because that's trying to get to know the essence of someone in the humanity of someone. And so it's been, great kind of reading through that, in light of kind of everything that's happening, kind of around. Then what am I watching? I don't know. Some great series on is Netflix or the, the lioness. I don't know. That's Alright. Good. I don't know. That's not my list. That's not my list. Movie. Yeah. It's good. Oh, and all the, land man too with, has also been quite good coming out of Yellowstone. Cool. I don't know. Not a lot. That's that's good. That's good. You you I'm impressed with your, your your range. What what Diane, what's your what what's on your list? Well, my new my new exciting project for twenty twenty five is, we are planning a trip to Greece. And, as as Michael knows, when we sort of plan these trips, one of the big parts of it is spending, like, six months reading and learning and exploring before we go. And so I actually had a conversation with ChatGPT. Like you have advised, John, when I flipped to just talking to it like a person changed everything to structure a reading and listening list and, like, all the things I'm gonna do. So, I have started in on that list that we co constructed and built together, which is pretty awesome, with, The Greeks by Roderick Beaton. And this is on the nonfiction side. I have fiction too. But, this one rose to the top because I really asked Chad to say, I I need you to find history that's, like, engaging and that's gonna keep my attention and, you know, give me, all the the way that I want history, the sort of the big spots. And so, so far, so good. One other thing. I this summer, when I did a vacation, I actually created a GBT with all the the travel itinerary, the PDF, and everything else into it. And then it was awesome because I could just ask it questions, but it would give me it would also speak phrases if I needed it to on different That's very cool. Yeah. It was kind of it was just kind of a fun little little thing, but I'll share the prompt with you later. Yeah. Yeah. I do. Because we we used it for itinerary planning for for, all the different interests in our group, but, did not jump to that level, John. That's that's a good one. My mine has just been a book, so I feel boring compared to you both. I polished off, Israel, a guide to the most misunderstood country on Earth by Noah Tishby, which has remained on my, mind quite heavily. And so I I highly recommend it. I thought it was quite good and quite humorous and quite, engaging the way she wrote about it. So I enjoyed it, and that's what I'll I'll recommend for folks. And, I think we'll wrap there. But, John, huge thanks for joining us again, kicking this off, with a lot to chew on. And for all you listening, write in with your questions, thoughts, things that are on your mind coming out of this conversation. We'll look forward to the next one on Class Disrupted.