Advancing Teaching: Reshaping Education in a Post-Pandemic World

Hey, Michael. Hey, Diane. Well, we are fully in the holiday season at this point, and I'm super curious. A couple of, you know, clicks away from the big part of COVID, are you noticing or experiencing anything different this year? Oh, yes, we are. We are hosting constantly, it seems. We have had my one of my kids entire classes and all their friends over We've had, parties galore, and and it seems like it's never gonna stop. We're gonna do it apparently straight through New Year. So that feels like a big difference. As you know, we've been renovating our house, that's basically done. COVID basically done knock on wood that there's nothing else coming. And, so there we are. And here we are in this, our fifth season, still, you know, working through some of the sticky issues in k twelve education all the way into how it impacts higher education and lifelong learning, frankly. And trying to give people a different vantage point on how to think about these intractable historically issues. So and I guess the last thing to say is as listeners know this year, we're doing a lot more guests. It's a little less of Diane Michael, a little bit more of people out there doing some really interesting work. And today you have invited a guest, Diane, who is doing a lot of interesting work. That that could not be more true, Michael. I it is, my great pleasure to have invited Tim Knowles here today to be with us. He's the president of the Carnegie Foundation for the advancement of teaching and learning. And, as you know, I, am really privileged to sit on the board of that foundation. And so I have a really front row seat to the ambitious agenda that the foundation's undertaking so much of what Tim and the team are seeking to tackle relates to the topics that you and I have been talking about on all of these seasons here on class disrupted And so I just thought it would be really fun to go back and dig into some of those like seat time, competency based learning, assessment, accountability, but through the lens of, a really historic foundation that has a really ambitious modern agenda, and has has had really profound impacts on our schools that I don't think most people realize or understand. And so I'm super excited for this conversation. Tim, welcome. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Yeah. Well, we're we're incredibly excited. I was really thrilled when Diane told me he she was gonna extend the invite, and before we dive into the work that you're doing now that Diane just alluded to. I know that the Carnegie Foundation for the advancement of teaching and learning has a long and pretty storied history. Can can you tell us a little bit about the organization and why it has mattered to k twelve education in this country? Sure. So Carnegie Foundation is a hundred and twenty years old, and it's it's been instrumental to a a wide range of educational things. The first thing it did literally. The first thing it did was create TIA. Now TIA, Cref, the largest retirement fund for teachers, professors, and people working across the the social sector. It then created the the the pesky Carnegie unit or the course credit, the bedrock currency of our educational economy, which I expect we might get into a little bit further. And it's done it's done other important things to its history. It's it it created Pell grants. It it created standards for engineering, law, medicine, and schools of education. And and more recently, it introduced improvement science, known colloquially as as continuous improvement to the education sector. But big big picture it's an institution which has or I like to think of it as an institution which has looking around the corner in its DNA. It's identifying levers to press to improve both the quality of k twelve and the post secondary sector to incubate things and and to bring them to life at a scale that's persuasive. And today, our our stake is firmly in the ground for first generation underrepresented and low income young people nationwide. Well, and that is one of the many reasons that I really appreciate being able to do, be on the board and, you know, be a part of a small part of what Tim and the team are working on. The only thing that I would add is I I was really surprised to learn when I joined the board that it's the first nonprofit in America, really. It it be it is enacted by Congress and becomes the first nonprofit in America. So many of us who work in education, I think take nonprofit entities and organizations for granted. And here's here's the the founding you know, member of that team. So just a really fascinating long, long history. And I I look really good for a hundred and twenty, don't I? Look. You look at Better every day. Interesting. For how old it is, I think, are you president number eleven if you're getting ten. I mean, not a lot of residents. So That's impressive. Yeah. Yeah. Tim, you just alluded to it. You know, for for the last stretch of time under the previous president, because you've been here at the foundation for a couple of years now. The foundation was really focused on improvement science, and this is one of the interesting elements of this foundation is that the the current president really gets to define, has the full latitude to define the agenda. And so under Tony Breich, and that's when I joined, you know, a whole vibrant improvement science community really formed. You're continuing that. You believe deeply in improvement science and have a long history of it as a method for how we do our work. But then have layered this really ambitious agenda on top. I wanna start with one of those meta outcomes you know, there's a the few of them that you're driving to, and that is to accelerate social and economic mobility. And achieve equity across the educational sector and you just, you know, alluded to this. Earlier in this season, we had Todd Rose on the podcast and you know, he shared a number of findings that, suggests that a majority of Americans are really starting to question the ROI of four year college and even you know, our K-twelve education system and that they have this perception that education has become the end goal versus sort of a means to achieving a good life, economic, you know, security, freedom, however you wanna say that. And that this big outcome that you're talking about seems to be in tune with the sentiments of you know, the American public, if you will. So will you talk to us about why this big meta outcome is important to the foundation and and honestly what you think can be done about it. So I'm gonna start with a sort of personal reflection about that. I my first job as a teacher was teaching Southern African history in Botswana, and it was before apartheid fell. And so by day, I taught a a fundamentally emancipatory curricula history curriculum. And by evening and by weekend, I was involved more directly in in what was then known simply as the struggle. I had the opportunity about twenty five years later to visit South Africa, which I hadn't traveled to when it was free. And I met with artists and activists and clergy like Desmond tutu involved on the ground in the struggle. And to a person, literally to a person, they said it was teachers, students, and professors who broke the back of apartheid. From a personal perspective, if educators were responsible for that, our work here, to accelerate economic and social mobility and achieve achieve equity seems seems eminently doable. I I guess I would also say personally that it, like, I I want to live in nation, and I want young people to live in a nation, whether you grew up on Navajo Nation or in rural Appalachian or in the south side of Chicago, you have the opportunity legitimate opportunity to lead lead a a healthy and dignified life. I'm much less interested in arguments about the particular kind of school you attend, public private charter, homeschool, or the time it takes to finish high school or a post secondary degree, I care much more about how to build systems that enable millions more young people to possess the knowledge and skills that they need to lead purposeful lives. I know, for your listeners, There are some out there who are gonna be persuaded, more by data about why social and economic mobility matter There was a study just to cite one study. There was a study by the Federal Reserve in Boston and economists from Duke and the new school. It was called the color of money, and they looked at the net worth of families living across a range of American cities by race. And the average white families net worth was two hundred and forty seven thousand dollars. The average Puerto Rican family's net worth was three thousand and twenty dollars. And the average non immigrant black families net worth is eight dollars. To be clear, I'm I'm I'm not suggesting education is not a powerful engine of economic mobility. We know it is. What I am suggesting and where Carnegie is putting our stake is that it could be a much, much more powerful one. Just, I mean, your own personal story and how you come to this is is inspiring to him. And I remember when we, the few times we've gotten to connect at different conferences and so forth hearing you speak about it, always touches a chord, I think, for those listening. And, obviously, you just alluded to how you all now want to make sure that the system evolves and really creates a lot more opportunity for a lot of individuals And I think that relates to a big partnership that has been in the news quite a bit lately, which is this partnership with ETF, the educational testing service, Can you tell us about what you're trying to do and why? First of all, I don't think assessment is a singular answer to serving young people better. Young people need to love school. They need to to be engaged. They need to feel challenged and pressed. They need to learn hard things and relevant things. They they they need to to experience learning, not just enact learning. So so I don't think we're gonna assess our way to a better place. However, there are a set of skills that we know matter, that that we know predict success in life in the workplace and in the schoolhouse, and and yet we haven't paid them as much attention as we might and their skills, affective behavioral, cognitive skills like persistence, communication, critical thinking, creative thinking, collaboration, we think they they deserve more attention, not at the expense of reading or algebra or history, disciplinary knowledge really matters, and and you can't think critically without something to think about. But we think these skills in particular need to be elevated. We also know that the the these skills are developed in in all kinds of context both in the schoolhouse and outside that many young people who demonstrate them, they're too often invisible or illegible to post secondary institutions and to employers into employers and even to to students and and parents themselves. So just by way of an example of what I'm talking about, if I if I'm growing up in rural Indiana, and I work for two hours every morning on my family farm, and then I get to high school at seven thirty every day on time. I have a ninety eight percent attendance rate. I do my homework on time. I get these or better, and then I have a job after school or on the on the weekends. Taken together, those skills in my view would represent persistence, and they should be made visible to students themselves certainly to educators and and to post secondary education institutions and employers. So if I was to state Michael really simply, what we're trying to do with ETS. We're trying to build a set of tools that will provide insight into key predictive skills that the education sector has neglected. I don't think teachers have neglected these skills, and I could say more about that. They I think they know that these skills matter, but we wanna build tools that will capture evidence of learning also wherever it takes place. And to make those insights visible and legible to students and parents actionable for teachers and useful for post secondary institutions and employers. That's at the heart of this. Yeah. No. No. That's super helpful. Let me I Diane may jump in as well because she's been in these domains, for a long time. For one, I guess I'm curious. When I hear you say that from my perspective, critical thinking, creativity, things like that. Right? They're they're a set of skills that can be applied in different domains, but they are being a good critical thinker is in a domain. Right? It doesn't necessarily cross unless you have domain knowledge. So I'm sort of curious how you square that circle with something like the example you use perseverance, which I would put in Diane's language, the habits of success different from skills, which might be a set of artifacts right across lots of different domains to show those habits. And so I'm I'm sort of curious, like, are you thinking of them all as the same set of assessments that will capture these or how do you distinguish some skills that sit within academic standards perhaps or or academic domains, let me say, versus those that maybe are a collective evidence across lots of bodies of work. And and that that's a great question. And and and frankly, is the work that we are doing right now is to figure this out. One of the, in terms of which skills are we really gonna draw on disciplinary knowledge? Which skills are we gonna draw on extent data that may exist like the kid in Indiana I just described? And and which skills actually do we need to build tools for from from the ground up that may we may not have a nuanced enough set of tools to measure, for example, collaboration, or or working with others So do you need to build game based or scenario based tools that would help you give you visibility in terms of how someone is developing on that arc? But but it's it's a it's a very good question. And clearly, whether it's it's critical thinking or or even persistence, you don't wanna divorce that from content and from subject matter. You learn a great deal about young people in in terms of of their persistence based on their approach to complicated problems and hard problems and how they how they go about solving them. So this isn't this isn't divorced from disciplinary knowledge in that sense by any means, I think in terms of of of of assessments and and, like, first of all, I should say the aim was not to take on the American assessment industry and all the politics that go with it and try to introduce an incrementally better set of disciplinary assessments. That feels like that would be sort of a kind of a common core type, like, reducts, like, and I think we we we saw that play out pretty clearly, and we saw where where dividends were paid and where they weren't. So I think really the intention here is to identify competencies that we, a, we know matter that predicts success that are developed in all kinds of contexts and create a set of tools that won't look or feel like traditional assessments. And and push the educational sector to attend, to a a richer array of outcomes. There's another another important thing that that I think is worth pointing out, which which actually makes me optimistic about this perhaps more optimistic than I should be. There's something as you both know but maybe not all your listeners know that is is sweeping the nation in the form of thing these things called portraits of a graduate. Or portraits of learner, states and school systems and schools have been developing them engaging lots of stakeholders basically asking, what do we want our young people to who do we want them to be? What do we want them to be able to do? So colleagues from ETS analyzed as many as they could find. This is one of the the wonderful things about being partnered with ETS. I feel like I have three thousand new employees. I can ask people to do things. But they analyzed all of these portraits and and there were about eight to ten core skills that Americans say they want young people to possess upon completion of k twelve. It's almost as though and and this resonates Diane with some of your work, but it's almost as though there's an invisible consensus about the core purpose of schooling a kind of a a river running through our nation, whether in red places or blue places, in cities and rural areas, about what we want our young people to who we want our young people to be. That's hopeful to me. So if if if we can help the other thing that people say about the portraits, if you speak to them candidly is, a, they haven't changed anything. Like, we haven't actually changed what's going on on the ground, even though we put a lot of energy into it. And b, we have no way of measuring these things. That to me represents an opportunity in the US right now that that I think is worth plumbing. I I I've just learned a tremendous amount from you. And I had a takeaway that I think I haven't had from the press stories on this which is, in essence, you're not trying to do what we recommend you never do in disruptive innovation, which is try to leapfrog the incumbents with the better. Right. No. You know, assessment or a better, this widget, whatever, but instead to go to the areas of non consumption where the alternative is nothing. And you're right. I see the same thing in the portraits of graduate, which is there's no way there's no teeth. There's no way to measure or represent or have an asset based framing around these things because there's nothing to measure them. So you're going there. I I think maybe the second question is less mine and more what I think a lot of people are wondering which is why partner with ETS on this because they have a, you know, they have a reputation in in in different quarters in different ways. As you know. That is a completely fair question, Michael. And and and I know you both know as well as I do that that most assessment companies across the world are grappling with what their future will look like. And and are seeing, quote, market share evaporate really, really quickly, stand alone assessments that bring schools to a screeching halt for two weeks in May and are are not predictive of very much. I hope are are are not gonna be part of the equation for the long term and yet those very assessment companies, including ETS, have made an incredible business based on that design. ETS is clear eyed about that in my view. They hired a new CEO, Amit Savak, who is exceptionally Great. He's exceptionally clear eyed about that. And and one of the magnetic forces from my perspective was they have the capacity to build for scale. I don't. Carnegie doesn't. We're a small organization. When when I introduced to the board, the idea of of focusing on the future of learning, which is really the aim here is is to get at learning One of our board members, who is an very well regarded scholar of assessment, said, well, what about the future of assessment? And at the time, I thought we don't we really don't have the capacity to build credible, reliable, valid tools to do some of this work, then amit who I'd known prior to ETS joined ETS and I thought there was an opportunity that led to a year's worth of conversations about whether they are willing to really try to innovate and and and in essence create a separate entity within ETS, but with its own walls and and autonomy to build a new set of tools that would would attend to these skills that would think about assessment in very different ways and that would be focused on the insights that that were generated, not not focused on on the test as it were. So so that's why ETS. Now that should be fair, again, I I I think the test for us is can we build something different can we is it gonna be useful to young people? Is it gonna be useful to parents? To teachers? I think we can. I But I know I know we we won't know unless we try. And that that sounds slightly glib, but I think it's true. Like, we have to take a shot at at broadening the picture of what we we think we we say is important for young people. It bears probably saying that that we met recently as part of this work with with the fifty teachers of the year from from across the country, from each state, and introduced the work to them. And literally there were some teachers in the room and tears. And I was like, what? What? Why? And the but they were saying bring it. This is the work we wanna do. This is in essence the work that parents know we should do, and this is why we we started to teach in the first place. That that's my short answer to Y ETS. I think is we have enough elegant examples that live around the edges of our profession. Everyone, each everybody in the in this or can point to elegant examples of of competency based learning that haven't scaled. So we need to think about we if if we're serious about tipping or using this tipping moment, we we have to figure out how to how to enact at a at a at a broader, a broader scale than than we have tried to historically. I will just add here because I I hear the critiques just like you and the questions. And, I will just add from a personal experience. I think you might know this, Michael, and you certainly do that several years ago Summit actually partnered with a, start up, you know, assessment company that was doing these exact types of assessment. So I know they're possible. I know that they can be done. And then, of course, it's a startup company. They got acquired and you know, employers valued and wanted these types of assessments, and they couldn't stay in K-twelve where the market was so competitive and unreliable at etcetera. And that was such a disappointment to me because I saw such the possibility of of those types of assessments and how they could be used and that they really were possible. And so it feels like this is where the, the sort of, solidness and the the expansiveness of ETS really per perhaps enables us to move forward. And I would just add a fun fact, which is I don't think relevant, but ETS is yet another entity that the Carnegie Foundation created and then spun out. And so We did. We did. Seventy five years ago. To this new partnership. Tim, like, you have, started alluding to this already because these things are all connected and and linked, but, you know, you said assessment's just the small part of it. And when you first started, it wasn't even a thing that you were thinking that we needed to do. Because what you're really setting out to do is sort of build this architecture that produces what you call reliably engaging, equitable, experiential and effective learning experience for all young people, every single one of them. You know, and I think that those, those words those concepts describe the type of learning that Michael and I are talking about all the time that we are advocating for, that we believe in, so beyond assessment, what does that architecture look like? What else is happening to try to bring this to life? So we clearly, and, you know, my bias here, we need to move away from models of schooling, singularly dependent on the Carnegie unit. Or the credit hour. It was established in nineteen o six to standardize an utterly unstandardized educational sector. So it was a great, great plan in nineteen o six. But but since nineteen o six, we've learned a great deal from from learning scientists and cognitive psychologists, neuroscientists about what knowledge is and how it's acquired. So we need learning modalities that are truly competency or mastery based, whatever language you wanna use that allow young people to solve real problems that support experiential education that enable them to work with with mentors and experts and and and peers. The problem is we don't is not that we don't know what this looks like. We do. We can all again, we can all point at examples of it. The problem is we haven't figured out how to bring it to life at a scale that's persuasive. So so thing one for me is is building in essence, existence proofs and networks of existence proofs that that that and amplifying and elevating them because it's this work is happening in ways that that, that will generate momentum and and attention. And I think we're in an interesting moment where I've where we're talk I've talked to eighteen or twenty states in the last four months, state leaders, state chiefs, governors, that they're interested in how do we move to competency based systems? There's an open windows open at the at the school system and state level I think post pandemic that that we have to leverage, and part of it is about cracking the Carnegie unit. Second thing I'll say is is is and this, you know, may make me, you may laugh me out of the the podcast, which might be a first to be laughing but but we need to think hard about learning experiences or curricular. And I I know this is we we people feel like they've been down the curricular road before, but the tools and supports for teachers and students have to be taken in careful more careful consideration. The problem with the wave after wave of standards and accountability efforts over the last forty years, this is completely oversimplified. But but it is that we thought if we cranked up the standards and tested for them on the back end, that somehow magically in the middle, the work that students and teachers would do every day would change. And I I I think this the the the the sort of governance reforms that led to charter schools were not that dissimilar. If we the theory being if we provided schools with flexibility on economy over hiring and and money and and use of time and governance. Somehow, they would would would the stuff that kids did every day would would shift and we didn't see that really occur. So So part of the architecture demands building learning experiences for young people across disciplines, which are which are course based, which are unit based, which can come in different sizes, that that to to use that language are are much more engaging, much more experiential, equitable, and and effective And finally, so first thing is the Carnegie Unit. Second thing is actually what gets taught. And the third thing is is policy. I I the the Carnegie unit has infiltrated much of our state level policy. And I I think we we we just assume that that perhaps their their states provide waivers so people can do what they want. Well, they don't they don't. Seat time is the rule. That is the rule. Master or competency is not the rule. Nine hundred and ninety hours of instructional time per annum or some variation on nine ninety is the requirement for the vast majority of states. I'm I'm a I'm a fan of guardrails. So so I understand the argument that well, be you wanna be careful about removing the guardrails. I'm not a fan of guardrails that don't acknowledge what we've actually learned about learning over the last hundred years, and that's the peril with with with this singular devotion to the conflation of time and learning in my view. So so there's a there's a set of policy opportunities if I was gonna frame it in a more, asset based way, that I see. And there's an appetite. And again, red states, blue states, both are are interested if if this is oversimplified, but the I think the majority of the the states the the more conservative states that I talk to are interested in in employment and employ access to jobs for young people who may otherwise leave their states. In the blue states, the the the the interest is more about access and opportunity, but I think both are the same in this case. They're they're fundamentally the same. Access and opportunity is really about employment, is really about social and economic mobility, I think there's some more common ground despite the the kind of thrum of of our national political discourse. I think you're right. And I get super excited when you start talking about replacing this time based unit. From the foundation that put it in place with something much more meaningful and meaty, And it's not surprising to me when I hear you, I wanna use the word preaching about this wisdom that you had to go and that you have, well, I don't wanna yell preach But, yeah, but when I hear you say, you know, we we ended up having to go to assessment, that makes sense to me because you have to replace the unit of time with something that is measuring progress in a different way. And so that makes sense. Now to switch gears completely, though, Another part of the work. Still, I mean, you guys are you you've got your tentacles in a lot. Another part of the work that that, that you all do And something that Diane and I have been talking a lot about on the show, is higher education, of course. And and you all have a profound impact about how we think of the categorization of colleges and universities in this country. And you've made some big moves to change that. So maybe you can for for our listeners that are less steeped in higher ed, can you tell us what the Carnegie classifications are in the first place? Why they matter why they have mattered perhaps in the way that was not intended and what you're doing now with them to change those incentives. One of the things we do is we classify every post secondary institution in the nation. Almost all of them. There's some that don't submit data to the federal government, and so we don't classify those. But something like forty five hundred institutions, we classify. Many of your listeners or some of your listeners may have heard of one of these classifications research one or r one classifications. That comes from us that spawned an arms race in terms of of higher ed institutions aspiring to be r one institutions and designated r one, not just because of the one, but because the federal government follows it up with vast tranches of of capital, of public capital. So there's real incentives to become an r one that, that that led to this arms race. So when I arrived at the foundation, the classifications had basically been been spun off. And had gone through very modest changes for fifty years. So since I got there, we've brought the classification. I've I've invented a new term. It's called spinning on. I spun it back on, and we brought them in house. We now with our partner, the American Council on Education, where trying to reimagine them from the ground up. So in twenty twenty five, all post secondary institutions in the country will be classified in new ways. There's there's lots of vectors of the work here, but one thing that I'm particularly excited about, and and I hope we'll resonate with the kind of work we're interested in on the k twelve side is developing a classification focused on the extent to which post secondary institutions are engines of social and economic mobility. So every higher institution in the country will receive an economic mobility classification. So classification is distinct from a ranking. We're not of the view that you can distinguish incredible ways between an institute number five hundred and ninety nine and six hundred on a list. Classifications are groups of institutions. So like institutions, we're we're in that sense, we're less interested in naming names and creating another rank order. The primary aim here is to learn what institutions are doing to effectively accelerate social and economic mobility to develop public policy that supports it. And and just as r ones have been the recipients of large tranches of public capital, to drive public capital to those institutions that are accelerating economic mobility. So that's the, that's that's the that body of work. It it's it's fascinating because the the big world doesn't know much about it. But the higher ed world pays extraordinarily close attention to it. So two weeks ago, I had a conference call with fifteen hundred higher education leaders. That's a third of them or something close. Which suggests how closely they're paying attention. So we want to, to to draw attention to to to to to one of the things that I think makes America and higher ed education grade, which is the extent to which they're actually making improvements in terms of of young people from from low income backgrounds, first generation young people, and underrepresented young people in particular. It's really fascinating. It's so interesting that a tool like that is is visible to everyone. I mean, so many of the national rankings are based in part, like, if you look at their formulas, the beginning of the formula is this classification. So we all see it, but we don't understand where it comes from, or, or super hopeful about the potential impact there. Okay. I have to squeeze one more thing in here before this is like the speed round. But I when I was in grad school, I learned about the committee of ten and the found impact that they had. I've talked on this show about this before. Michael and I have talked about this about how they really defined the what the order and sequence of high school curricula was and, like, you know, put the sciences in order alphabetically, biology, you know, but did it that way for a really long time. Like, you have launched something called the Carnegie Post Secondary Commission. So people should not be surprised to know there was a relationship with the foundation and that that old, committee. So you've launched a new a new commission tell us about it quickly. So sure. I the the the committee of ten was founded in eighteen ninety two. It was chaired by a guy called Charles Elliot, who was the president of Harvard at the time, interestingly, and I didn't actually note notice this, no, know this until recently Charles Elliot was charged by Andrew Carnegie to establish the foundation that I'm responsible for. So the congressional order that says we better create a nonprofit for this thing, is the first signature on that congressional order is Charles Elliot. So this it's a very tangled web that we we we live and weave. So the post secondary commission is a group of not ten but seventeen, k twelve and post secondary leaders that, in my my hope is that they become, the committee of ten for this century that that will be thinking hard again about the question of mobility and how do we create not just k twelve and post secondary systems, but systems that might even become much more blurred So k, sixteen, k, k to work systems, that that are going to not try to reach consensus as a group, and they have they've they all signed up with this agreement The aim is not consensus. The aim is is to to develop action papers that will provoke both thinking and policy certainly, but then to help shape the the the work of the foundation, particularly on the post secondary side for the next decade for what I hope is my tenure. So so it's it's a It's a it's a commission with institutional engine underneath it. It's an extraordinary group of people. I won't name them, but I would urge anybody who's interested to go and look at our our website and and meet them because they are almost to a person, first generation leaders who are doing exceptional things ranging from running large public systems to small colleges to to k twelve systems serving young people who depend on the quality of school the most. So so it it's an extraordinary group we just convened in earlier this month last month and, and and the world should get ready. Well, with that tease, why don't we leave the conversation there from a work perspective, but before people tune out, Tim, you're joining us. Diane and I have this end of show segment where we talk about things we're reading or watching, and we try to make them not about our work. We don't always succeed, but we try. So can we ask you what's on your Oh. Watching reading, listening list? I have a I have a weird tradition. I read poetry from December first to the new year, because it makes it makes me think differently. So I'm right now who am I reading? Hakhi, Marabhuti, south side of Chicago poet, Gendolyn Brooks, and w h Alden, not a south side poet. So a mixture. So but I I I find it, you know, it it it takes me out of my day job and and makes me think about the world and and people and what what what I'm here for in different ways. I love this because I always, like, poetry is one of those things I always wish there was time for it. I never know how to fit it in. You may have just given an an idea for not just me. So Diane, what's on your list? I'm gonna go a little bit different this week coming off, a time period where we have lots of family and fun friends around, we I did a jigsaw puzzle, this this fast weekend. Some special guest dropped in and helped put a few pieces, and it was so much fun. Makes your brain think differently, very social. So that's my, whatever, enjoyment of choice this week. How about you, Michael? I love that. That feels very COVID. I will tell you that, though. Right? But, but I, but I love it. Mine, I will go. We just finished the first season of the morning show. Reese Witherspoon and Jennifer Aniston, and have moved into season two. And, really enjoying it. It's, it's a complicated set of story lines that follow a little too closely like real life in twenty nineteen twenty in forth, and we're getting into the COVID period right now. But it makes you think. It makes you laugh. It makes you cry. It enjoyable. So that's that's where I've been, and we'll wrap it there. Tim, huge, huge. Thank you for joining us. Talking through all the initiatives that you all are doing at Carnegie. And, for all of us, we we we will stay tuned, and for all of those listening, we'll see you next time on a class disrupted.