Small is Big: Realizing the Next Phase and Evolution of Semiconductors

Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Vibrations, a TMC podcast. I'm your host Daniel Littwin, the voice of B2B, and folks, thanks so much for joining us on another episode of the show, as we continue to explore the ways that technology is changing, improving, and shrinking in size, and where we, the vibration control experts, are stepping into support this massive digital transformation that's rocking every industry. Now before we jump into today's conversation, I wanna make sure you're fully caught up on previous episodes of our podcast. So you can find more episodes of vibrations on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Just look at vibrations, vibrations, TMC, You should find our show, give it a subscribe, and you'll find a previous catalog of all of our, other conversations we've done in the past, but also you'll get notified when we drop new episodes of the show. So you don't wanna miss our future vibrations conversations. You can also find more information about our show more content, including videos, papers, resources, and more information about our solutions and services on our website. Make sure you're also going to tech m f g dot com. Again, that's tech, t e c h m f g dot com for all your TMC AMETEC needs and more vibrations content. Alright, folks. Let's go ahead and jump in. We've got quite a bit to cover today, but it's all gonna be rather focused. This is a technology focused conversation. We're honing in on one key piece of the digital transformation puzzle, and that is semiconductors. So today is all about semiconductors. This is a chip podcast. So we're gonna be breaking down in more detail the semiconductor industry's latest achievements. And really, our goal with the conversation today is to pose up an answer for you guys How are recent semiconductor breakthroughs influencing various key sectors that are seeing important digital transformation? What are some of the manufacturing challenges of smaller and smaller, but more powerful chips, Right? How is the manufacturing side of this also having to evolve to match the use cases? And how critical is vibration control, which we specialize in? In producing these top quality semiconductors. Right? And what role is TMC and AMETEC working to play? To support these digital transformations and the continuous improvement of semiconductors. We're also gonna be looking at some of the steps that conductor manufacturers are taking to enhance their efficiency, including electromagnetic interference and reducing set interference and find new ways to incorporate eco friendly practices into their manufacturing processes. So we're really gonna be looking at the whole pie today. We're gonna be digging in and focusing in on the world of chips. So let's go ahead and jump in to the heart of the semiconductor industry right here on vibrations with our guest. Let's give him a round of applause. Mister Steve Ryan, he's divisional VP for TMC AMatech. Steve. Great to be chatting again. It's been a hot minute, but it's good to get you back behind the mic here on vibrations. How you doing today? Thank you very much, Daniel. Good to talk to you again. Yeah. Absolutely. Always a pleasure getting to pick your brain. I've enjoyed chatting in the past, and I'm excited to, again, hone in on one key part of this larger tech puzzle but maybe I mean, I think arguably, but maybe the most important and the one where, TMC Amitec has a very important hand in realizing the next phase and evolution of semiconductors and therefore the use cases for said semiconductors. So let's jump right in, Steve. Got a lot of questions for you. First one, though, is that in the last several years, we've seen the semiconductor industry embrace and achieve some remarkable advancements in production quality you know, production efficiency, manufacturing efficiency, and then obviously also use cases, the possibilities of today's chips What are some of the recent breakthroughs or trends that you've seen in semiconductor technology that have really caught your attention or giving you the most you know, energy and hype for what's to come. And, what are your thoughts on their impacts for various industries? Go ahead and just give us that overview of what you've seen and why it's catching your eye? Well, what we what we see is more of what we've been seeing all along, you know, for the many decades that TMC has been in business, working to solve these kinds of problems going back to, you know, the early nineteen seventies. And that is that, you know, driven by by Moore's law, and that is that he two years. Chip densities double. The patterning keeps getting to finer and finer nodes. And, as as we move forward, getting down to smaller nodes requires ever more precise lithography and ever more precise inspection and metrology, right, to ensure that the the pattern is being correctly manufactured. And what that means is a higher level of sensitivity to all sorts of environmental disturbances, and, top of the list is building floor vibration. Limiting the ability to meet these advanced nodes, you know, down to sub five nanometer, sub three nanometer, even two nanometer nodes. In addition to floor vibration, there's electromagnetic interference, temperature issues, acoustic noise, drafts. All sorts of other things can, can undo impact this and need to be controlled. But what what we've seen is what used to be, you know, minor nagging nuisance in the early days for TMC become, you know, one of, the most challenging, issues to, correct if you wanna be able to, you know, keep advancing the semiconductor road map to, the next generations of nodes Yeah. And before we get into the manufacturing side of things, I wanna talk about some more use cases that I've personally seen, really capture my eye. I'm curious if you have any thoughts on them. You know, we've seen semiconductors, hone in in terms of their applications and use cases. So chips are getting more specific for what role they play in, you know, the computing ecosystem. And this is becoming more important as, as edge computing becomes more prevalent necessary to realize a lot of the sort of decentralized, and digitized goals of smart cities, industry four point o, you know, the sort of a autonomous and or at least close to autonomous vehicle networks that are being trialed, you know, across various cities, And all of that is, again, reliant on semiconductors that play a complimentary role in, you know, in chips that play a complimentary role in that larger computing ecosystem. So I'm curious, you know, of some of those examples or maybe others that catch your eye. What's, you know, what what is some of the consequences positive or negative, I guess you could say, or at least challenging that are coming from some of these, fast moving use cases that are requiring more unique and more powerful semiconductors. How's that sort of changing up the whole ecosystem? Yeah. So, you know, what what we saw for a long time was, you know, the major drivers were microprocessors and, memory chips. And, there's been a proliferation of all sorts of applications, including, you know, automotive applications, military. Now there's, you know, AI, no no limit to the areas where semiconductors are showing up the world. Of course, you know, mobile devices, left out mobile devices. And, you know, we at at TMC and, our efforts in vibration control, you know, trying to understand, well, which of these will have the most demanding requirements for vibration? And, that's not really the right the right question for us. Right? Because for us, the, the manufacturing pro it's really a question of the the tool sets that are being used to make the, patterned wafers and the chips and the, the node sizes. So, you know, regardless of whether it's for, an automotive application or some sort of, you know, aerospace application for a chip, It still needs to be a pattern inspected wafer. And, the question us is what is the node size? You know, the larger the wafer, typically a three hundred millimeter wafer. The question is really then, what is the pattern size? The smaller the pattern the more sensitive, the patterning process and the inspection is gonna be to for vibration and other artifacts. So really regardless of of what the chip application is, it's really for us a matter of what's the node size, and that's gonna ultimately limit the, sensitivity of of the application. Now as and you just kinda brought this up in your answer. But as semiconductors become smaller, become more powerful, and that form vac just keeps, you know, Moore's law. Right? Just keeps getting tinier and tinier. What challenges and opportunities also arise in terms of manufacturing, quality control, and reliability of said smaller and smaller semiconductors. Go ahead and unpack that a little bit more for us. Yeah. So you know, to get to, a particular node size, right, requires a number of different tools each with their own levels of vibration sensitivity and, and other requirements but the the broad the broad megatrend over the course of decades, is that going forward you know, from the past to now and going forward into the future, the smaller than the node size, ultimately the quieter the requirement for the building floor vibrations is. Right? So, the more advanced nodes need quieter and quieter floors, which means the semiconductor manufacturers have to invest in building techniques to build quieter buildings, and they do. And they've been very, very successful at it. The problem is you can't construct a building to be quieter than the earth that it's resting on. In other words, if you were to go up to a greenfield site, measure the the the the vibration, in a field, and then construct a building, well, whatever the field was, the building not gonna be quiet or it can only be worse. You know, a building is a set of structures and structures amplify vibration. They don't isolate them. And what that means is, you know, as you project forward in time, it's just not gonna be possible to build any semiconductor factory. That meets the most advanced tool set building for vibration requirements. And that means you're gonna have to do something in the building to make individual point locations where the sensor tools are located to make those point locations isolated from the building that they're that they're housed in. And naturally, right? As the form factor of semiconductors does get smaller and smaller. Precision becomes even more important. I mean, it's not like it hasn't always been, semiconductor manufacturing is known for its precision, but that obviously just gets more acute. And the, you know, room for error shrinks along with the size of the semiconductors themselves. So, let's start to talk a little bit more about the role of vibration control and isolation in this larger manufacturing ecosystem. How critical is, in your opinion, vibration control and isolation in semiconductor fabrication, and how does it affect the quality of final products? Maybe if you could compare differences. Right? Where we see this manufacturing, in practice without the proper vibration controls and isolations and how that impacts quality and reliability and QC, etcetera? Yeah. I mean, ultimately, I think for the, the semiconductor manufacturers, the biggest issue is is one of yield. Right? If you've got a vibration problem, it's going to affect the the the yield and and to some extent the throughput. So the, you know, the vibration sensitive instruments that we're talking about, wafer inspection tools and metrology tools, patterning tools, These tools already have advanced vibration sen advanced vibration isolation systems, built into them. And as, the next generations of tools advance, the isolators that are built into these tools get more sophisticated, more complex. There's more performance demanded of them. And it dives back into the my my previous comment, which is, you know, you get to a point where you still need to isolate the tool. So ultimately, you have two levels of vibration You have some advanced vibration isolation going on built deep into the heart of the tool. And, the entire tool then cannot just be cited in a semiconductor fab necessarily without an additional level of mitigation in the level of mitigation, you know, where the tool is being installed, that vibration isolation system that's going underneath the tool that has another vibration isolation system, that demands that the two be inherently compatible and complementary. Right? It would be very easy to stack to, complex vibration isolation systems on top of each other and have them be have there be, you know, cross cross talk or other incompatibility. So it it's essential with these advances that the advanced isolation systems in the tool the inherently compatible and complimentary with the second stage of isolation that's going between the tool and the the floor of the building, I should say the foundation of the building. Another, you know, disruptive force that gets in the way of quality semiconductor manufacturing is electromagnetic interference. This is top of mind. It's a major concern for semiconductor environments. Could you discuss the importance of mitigating electromagnetic interference in semiconductor processes and why that's so important and how it fits into the larger you know, vibration control and isolation ecosystem, even, you know, even, excuse me, if they're not exactly the same, you know, risk to mitigate. Well, as as the semiconductor patterning as more as low advances, and the patterning, nodes become smaller and smaller. The the finer, the feature that you're trying to create or inspect or or view requires, ever shorter wavelength light. Right? So it's a principle in physics that to to to resolve an object, the wavelength of light, you know, that you're using to to reflect off to to to view through a microscope or or whatever, needs to be considerably smaller than the the feature size. Right? The the wavelength of the light needs to be smaller than the thing you're looking at. And so, over time, the wavelength of of light to do this kind of inspection has become smaller and smaller getting to the point where it's outside of the visit visible spectrum. You know, it's ultraviolet, which is not visible or it's deep ultraviolet or extreme ultraviolet now. And, you know, we're talking about light light is not sensitive to the light is, is non magnetic. But as we get to, you know, extreme resolution, that requires something that be a shorter wavelength and we can practically produce and control with light, and that is electrons. So electrons aren't light but electrons have extremely short wavelength, and they're great for imaging very small things, and that's why there are such things as electron microscopes. So when you use an electron microscope, electrons are charged. They have a they have a electric charge. And that means that they're very sensitive to changes in magnetic fields, background magnetic fields, or changing magnetic fields. Not so much the earth's field, but things that are changing. So, something like, you know, the power in the building electricity flowing through power lines creates a magnetic field, that spirals around that, you know, is coiled around the, the line, a moving elevator. Right? An elevator is gonna have some charge that it picks up from static. And a moving elevator means moving charge. You're moving a changing field that that causes creates a magnetic field, which is gonna disturb an electron microscope. So there are all sorts of if you were to measure, you know, the you know, the magnetic flux density, the magnetic field, if you will, at a point, right where you're sitting right now, you're gonna see some magnetic field cause by the electricity flowing through the cables in your room, you know, caused by by by various things. And, compound that in a semiconductor factory with all sorts of equipment that has moving stage and stages and there there there are lots of sources of things that will create a changing magnetic field. So it's important to, be able to control that magnetic field. So these charged electron beam tools like electron microscopes or other electron beam inspection tools, can perform to their full capabilities. So to do this requires things like, measuring magnetic fields in in three axes. And, in response to that, you know, that measurement, you take the signal, you condition it, you amp fly it, you run it back through, some helmholtz coils or pseudo helmholtz coils, basically running, burning electricity through coils is gonna create a magnetic field. So we wanna sense the the the the magnetic flux density and then drive a current through those coils to create an equal and opposite field at that point that we're measuring it. And of course, we're doing that in three axes all the time. So, you know, that's the reason we're talking about magnetic field cancellation system. The fact that, you know, there's this there's this long term trend for using electron beams to to inspect rather than optical beams for everything. And, also that the, you know, these, magnetic field cancellation systems, again, have to be compatible with the tool in many cases built into the tool and, you know, compatible with any vibration isolation systems that are being used. Now, you know, something unique about semiconductor manufacturing and the tools that are key for semiconductor manufacturing is that they have a lot of moving stages. Right? And these stages typically need to step and settle very quickly. I'm curious what kind of challenges this presents from a vibration point of view. Right? If you had to kinda hone in on just this this one unique aspect of semiconductor manufacturing? It's a big challenge. It's a big challenge because, you know, the the the tools will have a payload with, as you say, there's a a motorized x y stage. So there's some manipulation of the, silicon wafer that's being patterned and, you know, optics to to, typically inspect that. So this all needs to be isolated from the floor. There needs to be a vibration isolation system built into the tool to isolate this. And the problem is isolation systems by by their nature tend to be, you know, soft springs, mass spring dampers with a soft spring. Softer the spring, the better the isolation. But the softer the spring, the more the payload is going to slosh around as the x y motorized stage modes as the stage moves, say, in the plus, x axis and, you know, accelerates gets up to a constant velocity and decelerates to zero, that's gonna create a torque and, cause the payload to move around on the isolation system that takes time to settle. So, settling time means it takes longer to produce and inspect the, the pattern wafer, and that's bad. Right? Do you want to be able to manufacture these things at a high rate of speed, which means this motion, of the payload when the isolators deflect and recover in response to stage motion, that needs to be minimized. Do you wanna minimize the moving around? And you wanna have the, settling time be as short as possible. You know, it's it's close to, zero in the time domain as it can be. So that means the isolation systems that are built into these types of advanced semiconductor tools have advanced over the years from, you know, in the early days, being a maybe a a self leveling air spring that was terrific and isolating vibration, but not very good at settling the stage motion. So over time, we started doing things like, controlling the air in the isolator using electronic valving so that when the payload moved in, again, say the positive x direction, we, prior to even sensing any deflection, we moved some air into one set of isolators and took some air out of other isolators so that would recover, prior to, deflection. And, of course, there's a limit to how well you can do that. And there's and it doesn't really help with the horizontal deflections and horizontal motion settling. So as as the years went by, we started using vibration sensors on the payloads, geophones or accelerometers to sense the vibration of the payload in response to the x y stage. Moving, and then, adding, linear motors or or voice voice coils to cancel the motion of payload in the x y and and z axis. So six degrees of freedom, x y and z axis, pitch roll and yaw. And then we started adding, adding to, you know, further, shorten the settling time and further, limit the brochure of the payload and response to these stage motions, we started using feed forward techniques, with the motors. So rather than waiting for the payload to deflect in response to the stage, you know, the, controllers that are controlling our motors would be talking to the controllers that are controlling the stage motion inside the tool. And, when the stage starts to move, we're applying a force before anything is moved. So feed forward of, of, the pneumatics feed forward of the, stage motion control, feedback, of the vibration sensor sense to the payload. Feedback of the position that the payload had has displaced. So there are multiple, control loops trying to settle the trying to limit as much as possible the payload from displacing. And, get it back to its null position and settled in the shortest possible period of time. And again, that's very complex. And if all that's going on in the tool and you're trying you need to then stack it on another level of isolation. You can imagine there might be some crosstalk between those things and that needs to be, plan for in advance to avoid problems. Now another side, Steve, of this manufacturing puzzle for semiconductor manufacturers, is also helping align the semiconductor slice of the tech ecosystem with some of the larger technology, industry, and, you know, more broadly just sort of industrial or manufacturing industry, goals of environmental consciousness, sustainability, and action. Right? And there's so many different layers to this ESG puzzle, you know, whether it's sort of internalized strategies, whether it's, you know, top down, in requirements that are now being pushed at a state or federal level. But regardless, we're now seeing that semiconductor manufacturers also have to kinda step up and play their part in reducing the larger footprint carbon footprint, right, of their, you know, manufacturing processes. So I'm curious with this growing demand for not only semiconductors, But also their end devices, you know, being more energy efficient, more, energy conscious and green, how are semiconductor manufacturers addressing some of these needs and maneuvering the challenges that come with a requirement or a desire for more efficient and reliable semiconductor materials, manufacturing, and performance too, you know, to be energy efficient when actually in use. Break that whole ESG sphere down for us. I know that's kind of a lot, but, you know, wherever you think there's, some good insights to share for our audience. Yeah. Well, certainly, one way ties back to one of the, you know, the first things we talked about and that is that, as time goes on, the next, chip sets, have smaller and smaller nodes, which means the buildings need to be, you know, semiconductor factories, the front end semiconductor fabs, need to be constructed, in a way to create a quieter environment. And, again, limited by how quiet the the ground is that it's being constructed upon. But, you know, there are a lot of techniques and structural engineering of of of buildings to, to make buildings quiet. And they tend to rely on masks. It tends to be, you know, over all overly simplified here, but it tends to be, you know, throwing a lot of steel concrete at the problem, especially concrete. So, you know, to get even a a relatively small improvement, in the ambient building for vibration levels in a semiconductor factory requires an enormous amount of concrete, enormous. And, concrete, curing of concrete contributes. It's, I think it's about eight percent of, global greenhouse gases, you know, CO2 and and and h2o. So it's about eight percent of that. So throwing a lot of concrete at the problem is not very eco friendly. And so, you know, what we're seeing more and more of is having, less ambitious goals for how quiet a building can be constructed. And instead of making the entire building a little bit more quiet by throwing a lot of concrete at it, rather than doing that, focus on the point at which the tools are being in installed and trying to co create a little quiet island under that tool if you So rather than making the entire, you know, building extremely quiet, when you only need it to be at that level of, vibration at a few discreet at a few discreet locations or, you know, a few dozen discreet look locations or even a couple of hundred discrete locations. It's better to attack the problem at that point and try to actively sense vibrations at that point. Cancel them in a way that you're supporting the tool and create create that quiet environment without all this additional concrete and the generation of, you know, a lot of greenhouse gases. Alright, Steve. I really appreciate you giving us this overview of, sort of a, I guess, a a poll check on the state of the semiconductor industry and some of the, you know, challenges and opportunities that are marking this era of semiconductor manufacturing and, obviously, they're then subsequent use cases. I wanna ask a couple more questions here to close things out, but these are a little bit more about, TMC Amitex role in the larger ecosystem. Obviously, we already talked about vibration control, the importance of vibration control and semiconductor manufacturing. But beyond that, we know that collaboration is truly key in the semiconductor sector. You know, aligning production needs and use cases with the you know, inevitable end use cases, for these semiconductors and sort of playing a chicken in the egg with where is the market headed? How do we adjust our manufacturing and our products themselves to meet that need and vice versa, is is key. And this collaboration extends all the way to collaboration between folks like yourselves, right? CMC Ematech who play a supportive role in the production process and the semiconductor manufacturer themselves. So I'm curious if you can shed some light on that. Right? And and shed light on how, you know, you work not only collaboratively internally because when we talk about TMC, we're talking about TMC working with other Amitec companies, including Pressitec and Sterling to help foster innovation and address some of these common challenges, but also collaborating externally with manufacturers and other partners to elevate the whole industry, tell us a little bit about that internal and external collaborative force and y'all's role and approach to it. Yeah. I would say that, the way I would put it is the the two levels of collaboration that we have, with TMC are with, the semiconductor equipment manufacturers. Right? The people who make the tools that are, irresponsible for the pro process to create the pattern wafer and, inspect it and, do all the back end, testing assembly and so forth. So does the collaboration with those vendors but there's also collaboration with the semiconductor factories themselves who are buying those tool sets that, in many cases have our isolation systems designed into those tools. And, the semiconductor manufacturers then are in the position that they might need to make their building quieter to house those tools or quieter certain points with these quiet island, as I had said before, type type solutions. So I would say it's a it's a two stages of collaboration with the equipment makers to ensure that our things like our new product roadmap are aligned with their long term plans of where they're going, and we're gonna be able to meet the, you know, increasing demands of those tools over time for better isolation, faster settling time, you know, less power requirements, you know, you name it. There are all sorts of things that they're gonna heat going forward. So we're collaborating with the tool manufacturers for the isolators that'll be in the next generations of tools, but we're also collaborating with the semiconductor factories that it to ensure that, you know, where they're looking to get in terms of four vibration levels in the future. You know, without investing great amounts in in in concrete, or, you know, trying to find locations that are quiet enough but impractical. Are we able to deliver how are we going to deliver the vibration isolation underneath the tools that's adequate going forward, you know, many years in the future based on what their what their, you know, road map, their technology road And then, just for a little more clarity here, Steve, for our audience, how does TMC's relationship differ between the end manufacturers of semiconductors? Versus the tool manufacturers themselves. Because I imagine, you know, those relationships look different, but there's also a lot of similarity obviously, sort of, cross talk with, you know, collaboration between all parties. But, yeah, go ahead and, shed some light on the differences there. Sure. Well, you know, one example would be that, you know, we may collaborate and and, you know, work, or the tool manufacturer for an advanced vibration isolation system that may be, you know, years in the work, between the development, you know, the prototype testing, beta units, and so forth. And, you know, when that tool finally goes to market and starts showing up in, semiconductor fabs, the fabs very often then approach us. And say that, you know, this particular tool is gonna be housed in a location that, doesn't meet the four vibration spec of the tool. And they're asking us for for help to isolate that tool. Well, we're in an excellent position there, right, because we know all about that instrument. We know everything we have to know about that instrument in terms of, you know, its mass, its dimensions, you know, internal moving forces, robotic stages and so forth in that instrument. We know everything about the vibration isolation system built into the tool because we're doing it. So we're in a perfect position then for the fabs, the semiconductor fabs to say, yeah. That tool we're very familiar with. And, we have all the information about that tool we need to propose a point of use vibration isolation platform that will, you know, get the floor back into the vibration requirements and yet be inherently compatible with everything about that tool because we're familiar enough with the details of of the, electromechanics of that, that instrument. And sort of to bookmark this then, as we look ahead, I think this, you know, collaboration is going to continue to be key, because that's where you know, not only new opportunities for semiconductors are realized, but that responsiveness to changes that are maybe outside of you know, even the forces of control of, you know, the TMCs and the, the tool manufacturers and the semiconductor manufacturers, hands. Right? I'm curious what you see on the horizon for semiconductor manufacturing based on some of these collaborative conversations you've had with other players in the industry, kinda, you know, where where conversations landing right now, where do people have their pulse on the market, you know, whether that's a great opportunity or you know, somewhat of a rattling challenge. And how is TMC preparing for some of those things on the horizon? What are your thoughts? Yeah. Well, you know, I've been here at TMC since nineteen eighty six. And I've I've been watching this play out over, more than thirty five years now, and, seeing the Moore's law continue to keep up with, the predictions. And, you know, I recall even before that back in, undergraduate physics when we in solid state physics classes. We're trying to understand how fine, pattern you you you can have before quantum mechanics started breaking down electronics. And, you know, that at the time was seen as the, you know, the ultimate limit, and it's got a little bit more complicated than that. So, you know, here we are now with, you know, chips that have, you know, three, two nanometer nodes sizes. And, you know, the defects are so small just to give you an analogy. So if you're trying to look at a three hundred millimeter wafer, you know, about a foot in diameter, disc. And, you're trying to inspect for, a defect over that three hundred millimeter disc. The scale of that defect to the disk that you're looking at is within an order of magnitude, of a satellite, you know, flying over the earth and trying to find, an ant in Rhode Island. Basically. So, you know, the just we're talking about just extreme extreme, you know, levels of, you know, extremely high levels of, resolution, if you will. And, you know, having watched it move forward over the last thirty five plus years and try to project it into the future. Well, we're at the point now where these these these these nodes, you know, or on the order of, you know, several, you know, five, ten, a dozen, whatever carbon atoms across, you know. So you're almost talking about individual, atomic, diameter resolution. And, frankly for me, it's hard to project it very much into the future. Because it's hard to for me to believe that, you know, we've gotten to where we are even though when I watched it all along the way, I still find it hard to believe. And, I think that's the yeah, the exciting part to to watch how, you know, even what I described is kind kind of the current level of resolution and you know, the size of of the of the features. How could you possibly project that forward into the future and, you know, predict where where it's going? So I would say it's been a truly fascinating run and just very exciting to see how it continues to move forward. Couldn't agree more of Steve. And we'll obviously be keeping a pulse to things and continuing to provide updates here on the podcast of where the industry's headed. Exciting opportunities we see on the horizon, maybe some challenges too. And, again, how TMC is playing a role to, elevate and control some vibrations for the industry. So thank you again, Steve, for your perspectives today. It was really a pleasure. Again, folks, we've been chatting with Steve Ryan. He's a divisional VP for t m see Amitec. And Steve, if folks want to pick your brain a little bit more, maybe read up on some of your other thoughts, where can we point them to? More information on on you and your perspectives here. Absolutely. You can reach out to me through our website, be be the best starting point. Tech m f g dot com, t e c h m f g dot com. Alright. Easy enough. Steve Ryan, thank you so much for your time today on vibration. It's really been a pleasure, and I'm looking forward to the next episode. Thank you, Daniel. Pleasure was all mine. And thank you everyone for tuning in to today's episode of Vibrations, a TMC podcast. If you like what you heard and saw today and you want previous episodes, or you wanna make sure you don't miss out on future thought leading conversations here with the TMC team. Make sure that you're heading to our website tech m f g dot com and make sure that you're subscribing to the podcast on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. I'm your host Daniel Litwin, the voice of B2B, and we'll catch you on the next episode of TMC's podcast vibrations.