Unpacking the Future of Wellness and Retail in 2024

You're listening to retail refined, a market scale podcast with me, Melissa Gonzalez. Hello, everyone, and welcome to the first episode of twenty twenty four for retail refi. I'm so excited to be kicking off the air with an amazing discussion on wellness at retail with the go to expert, Jennifer Walls. She is a visionary entrepreneur, a celebrated author, an influential media personality that I had the pleasure of being introduced to. Oh my goodness. I think over a decade ago, it's probably twenty ten or so. By a good friend of ours, Jennifer, yet, I believe that was our connection. Jennifer has been at the forefront of Beauty. Retail and the convergence of nature and neuroscience, and she has consistently driven innovation to empower individuals to thrive. In the 90s, she pioneered the first variantial retail brand in America called beauty bar, which was later acquired. So we're gonna have to dig into that a little bit as well. And this earned her the title of beauty futurist. And She has not let go of the opportunity of being a futurist, but just continues to evolve. So really excited to talk through that a little bit more. In twenty sixteen, she also launched the transformative video series walk with Walsh. If you go on her website, you can book walks with her, and she does coaching and all this other stuff, but she also travels the world and has great keynote conversation on the opportunities of neuroscience and wellness I'm really gonna dig into what the future of all that's gonna mean for us, especially when it comes to retail. So, Jennifer, thank you so much for being with us today. I am so thrilled, most. I'm so happy to be on this podcast. As I said before we came on air, I've been listening for a long time. So honored to be here to kick off twenty twenty four with you. Yeah. And, you know, it's crazy. I've been looking through Instagram and you're seeing so many of these posts of people kind of talking about this real desire to have more wellness in their life, whether it's mental or gut health or whatever it is. So I just really feel like it's It's a conversation we can't, not only ignore, but just not embrace the significance of it. But why don't you let's start from the beginning with you? Tell us how this all started know, we can start from the nineties. Tell us a little bit about beauty bar and how to kind of set the tone for your expertise in retail. That's funny because you say that, Mike. Thank you. And how when we first met remember meeting you. It was around two thousand ten. And I was so impressed by what you were doing, and here you are all these years later, just at the forefront of your work. So I'm so impressed and so proud of because you really Thank you. Taken your work to such a different level that it's been beautiful to watch the transformation and the evolution of you. So I just wanna say that upfront. No. It's been great to watch. So, yeah, I started actually in finance in the nineties. And loved makeup on the side, and I've been a makeup artist, starting out as a makeup artist, and Then on a fluke, a friend of mine threw me in front of a TV camera in nineteen ninety seven. And so I need you to go on TV and talk about the makeup you're using on sets. On TV and movie production and, behind the scenes stuff. And I, you know, no one was really on TV in nineteen ninety seven talking about makeup. So my response was absolutely no. I'm not gonna go on TV. But he twisted my arm and I did. Do me in front of the camera? And it became a weekly TV segment. I was talking on his beauty product and they were these new emerging brands such as Bobby Brown, Fresh, Stella, because at the time, there were only a few beauty brands at the mall. So let's say Estee Lauder, prescriptives, Claire and Sarah was just a handful of beauty brands at the time. So here I was talking with these brands that no one had really heard of yet. And I'll sort of state me an idea, what if I take, the TV as my educational tool? And if I can open a store, that would be my sales channel. And I had not seen anything like that yet, so I didn't. So I would call, like, Christina Carlina who founded philosophy and all the other founders. I said, hi. Good little idea. What if I take your products and just put them in a store setting? And I've already got the weekly TV segment, so I can edge people on what new products are about. And, that was the beginning of a beauty barn. And it was I didn't know that much about retail. It was kind of I had to learn as I went. Yeah. And then, you know, it it's interesting most of how we've all involved in retail, and it was really more more of a gut feeling along. So I didn't have KPIs or ROIs or Right. You didn't talk that way. Yeah. You didn't talk that way. And I didn't even know many female founders, especially female retail founders at the time. I need some small business owners, around me, but, mostly fashion shoes, but nothing in terms of beauty and cosmetic skin care, wellness. And, that's how it really started. It was the beginning of the unknown, but then there's this opportunity to say, oh, wow. I'm signing all these products no one ever heard of. So all these things kind of lined up. And my little sister was dating a guy who was specialty in IT. So after open the store, I had a website right away. So right from the get go, we had it was all me channel right from the get go. We had the store we had the website, and then we had weekly TV program, right for the beginning. So it was this great omni channel presence, and it was a fun way to start in the BAD role. It's it's really hard. It was incredibly hard. But thankfully too, I wasn't I didn't have any investors. It's all self funded. Thirty thousand dollars in savings that I had. And everyone And then you got acquired by Amazon? Yeah. I got acquired by quincy. So quincy owned diapers dot com, and they were just starting soap. So with this, they said we want to buy me out so that way they could sell, the three brands to to Amazon. And that's kind of how that evolved in two thousand ten to two two thousand eleven. But, yeah, that's what I'll begin. Yeah. Well, always learning. That's the most important part is that we have an always learning mentality. You've been transformed. Right? But it's really an evolution. In twenty sixteen with walk with Walsh would still exist, and you're getting featured in the New York Times. And but just kind of another layer of you kind of bringing human connection together to what you do. So can you tell the audience a little bit about that? Sure. So after the sale of Beauty Bar, I worked brands over overseas and the US trying to help them build US, footprints. And and then I was just I've been doing TV for just as long. So I thought, well, it'd be really fun to interview friends, better CEOs and founders in Central Park because I love I love interviewing people, and every person I interviewed was about what I meant to be a healthy leader and our nature connection, and every person I interview kept saying, well, this feels so good, but I never get outside. And I thought that was really interesting to me. And that was the beginning of this discovery, to be honest. They're, like, diving down. What does it mean if people they know it feels good. People are they know this walk feels good. They know the time spent outside feels good, but they weren't giving themselves permission to go outside. And I thought there's something here for every single person saying the same exact thing to me, and that was that was down the rabbit hole I went, and I I never looked better. But I realized it was all it's been all connected all along, even my beautiful stores, were completely integrated with nature. Now that I know is called biofilic design. I didn't have a name for it in the nineties. So it was it was always there, but just now I had this I had the science behind me. I had the words to use, and now I understood it more. Yeah. And now you're also a faculty advisor, right, at the University of Pennsylvania Center for neuro aesthetic? Yes. So I get to work with doc Anjan chatterjee who has at the forefront of, neuro aesthetics, neuroarchitecture, he speaks deeply into neuroscience and our spaces. I also work with doctor Stephanie Peabody at the Green Health Initiative, which is a living lab under Harvard and Mass General. So I'm also a faculty advisor there. So It's been really fun to take my background and beauty. Yeah. Places have been work in in a place of neuroscience, which I've always wanted. It's interesting that you asked that because in twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, when I really started understanding this connection to nature, And our the people I was looking for a nurse scientist as a nurse scientist to partner with, and of course, I was too green to know what I didn't know. So I had to study a bit more, research more. Yeah. And then, doctor Anjan and I were on a panel together in Italy of all places. And we sat next to each other, and we both just said, This is your you're speaking of what I'm speaking about, and we're doing the same thing, but different. And let's let's find ways to work together. So that's kind of how that evolved. Yeah. I love that. It's all intertwined. Well, I I'm gonna have to then so we're gonna have a a conversation and your expertise and a report we just put out. Called holistic health. Consumers are seeking wellness in everything they do. And our question to brands and retailers is how are you showing up for them? And so what one of the things we first dove into when we did this exploration was really Kind of benchmarking where people's awareness even was and how they kinda dip those different personas of where people are in their own trajectory of wellness. And it was pretty interesting to see the, you know, we have ritualistic. So those who are committed to wellness, There was only about twenty three percent. But on the flip side, a a large percentage, forty two percent, really wanna learn. They really wanna learn. They wanna develop these practices. They wanna figure out how to fit them into their lifestyle needs. They get really opens up an opportunity for a brand of retailers who can facilitate that education and make it attainable, there's a real opportunity. That is exactly it. And I loved your study. I read so much. I was like, oh my gosh. It's exactly what I feel like I've been seeing as well due to the ages of, you know, the alphas to the boomers of what people are looking for. And it's really interesting because that's exactly what you're saying is people they're looking for education They're looking for, like, what to do at the different times of life. And, of course, I'm fascinated by TikTok and and what we're talking about. But I'm also a little hesitant that because I really want to hear from the people that are experts in this space and not just, I know. It's dangerous for sure. Yeah. It's dangerous. Yep. But, yeah, I do think, you know, the other thing that was interesting was their affiliation with wellness and purpose. That is it. And I think that's the thing too. In another study, I was at a conference this really, last year. So Hershey's was on stage and they talked in their research. Only about a third of customers believe that brands lived their purpose. But in our in our research, every one and two, more than half of the respondent found a sense of purpose to be the greatest benefit. From partaking in wellness related experiences. So if you bridge that together, I mean, it's a huge opportunity. How how are yeah. How how do you what do you think about that? I'm like, is that kind of thought coming up in the work that you're doing and you're advising? Yeah. I'm seeing a lot. What you're saying is they wanna find first of all, they wanna find the experiences that people can feel the holisticness. They don't wanna be I don't wanna be sold to you all the time. Even on social media, if everyone's like, hey, buy this, buy that. It's just it's so in your face and it's not authentic. Seeing and hearing people just say, how do we tell stories? How do we stories into, our sales channel? Is that it's more about brand discovery? What their their purpose is as a brand. Like, let's say REI or Patagonia or they're like Patagonia's numbers have just skyrocketed because they're really living their truth. Yeah. They're really showing. There's no sustainability. What are we doing to really show that we are We're not cutting corners. This is gonna cost time. We're gonna get rid of things and don't align with the brand in new longards. It's really formative. It's really powerful message that they're sending, and that goes at ripples to the entire retail industry, I believe. So I love seeing people customers really align themselves to things that they believe in that are meaningful and beautiful and the brands are really being able to kind of interweave those dynamic moments of life. And when I say holistic, I really mean, like, the whole body. It's not just great. It's a running sneaker. Okay. What's whatever. But how are they getting involved in local communities, and how are they, like, the stores presenting themselves? Because, you know, I'm I I love I'm a retailer. I'm old, like, even though I'm not in the store everyday, I miss being in the store. I miss I always say to people, hey, let me work in your store for a day. I just I love the sales channel. I love the sales floor, and I love working with people. I do miss that, to be honest. But, I just think there's so many stories to be told in the stories we told in a store that are really powerful and beautiful because our spaces are always shocking to us. We aren't we don't think about it. There were just our bodies are reacting to the spaces that we go in and out of. I always say that we are sensorial beings looking for sensorial experiences all the time. We don't have to think about it. It's just in our DNA where how we're programmed to just feel something innately, whether we like it or not, the sound a lot. The loud sounds of very aromatic places can kind of be offensive to some people. Mhmm. Refining that what is it? One in ten or one in twelve? People, I believe, in the US, are, neuro neurodivergent. So people are having to pay more attention to how their spaces are to everybody of all of all agents. Let's talk about that because the audience might not fully understand what need. Sure. That's, you know, Helen. Neurodivergent is someone who, let's say they have ADHD or they are on the autistic spectrum My twin sister is severely disabled. So she is on a totally different spectrum of neurodivergent, but they are people that have different abilities, brain abilities. And some of these spaces and places, as we know, many people who have, autism can suffer when they go into certain stores that are very loud, and they are very, very shint oriented. So some places like the camp store, the Slumu Institute have, initiated certain times of day where the lights are turned down a little bit. The noise has turned down, but they're really offering time for those that, have, their neurodivergent to come and just feel like they could be in the space and not turned off by it. Yeah. And we because we did a lot of investigation around the different consorial, elements to you know, depending on the senses. So it was interesting to see how people respond to light, sound, and, how do you keep it kind of personalized but also, you know, it's a public space when it's an retail store. So you can you wanna be inclusive, but you wanna be personalized, but So it's interesting balance to all take in. When we ask some questions too about, like, what were the top three themes that they thought brands should emphasize when it comes to like a wellness experience. People wanna feel a sense of healing and tranquility and and be reenergized. But with but facilitates that ranges so much from person to person. In in your work too, you said you're doing, you know, the faculty advisor, architecture, and aesthetic And what kind of trends are you seeing? What what are you thinking, we're gonna see more of in in twenty twenty four? It's so interesting because I love to people from, you know, overseas to all over the US. And because a lot of people aren't saying biophilic design. They're just saying sustainable design or dynamic environments but it really is nature in the space. So there are something called fifteen principles of biophilic design. And, they really are bringing nature in a space. So how does sound affect us? How does daylighting affect even, the perception of the store? So they've done some Terepin, Greg Green, is based here in New York, and they have an office in DC, and they've done lots of studies on on daylight, sound. And how that affects, like, there's more nature in the space. People perceive the the products to be more, expensive than without nature. So they're seeing a lot more I know we just plant walls, but really understanding, how, like, wood features, and we see wood in our spaces. We automatically relax. And there's certain grains of wood that relax us more. And again, we're not we're not saying, oh, it's would. I feel good. It's innately programmed within us. And that's really fascinating. And even when people put natural elements, but aren't real natural elements in. If we go to touch it or we see that it looks fake, actually, we get turned off. We don't again, we're not we don't need to be turned off. It's just within us. And we say, oh, I thought that was gonna be real. And, oh, it's not. So we kind of get disappointed. So I think there's gonna be a lot more interplay of bringing natural elements, but the education is, I think, the key element, and that's why I love But I feel like now I'm a teacher. So I get to go around the teacher about, like, why it matters, for brands or PR industries too to understand how do we talk to the natural elements in our spaces and how that makes us well or unwell. I said we are like we are basically like in a an antenna everywhere we go, and we're receiving these elements whether they're good or or bad. And places can I always say places can either feed us or deplete us? And I think that's really important for everyone. Yeah. And I guess the the the trick too or the homework in the essay instead of trick is how brands do that authentically. Right? Because You still need to be on brand, mhmm, tone, voice, and all that, but also wanna lean into these opportunities, embracing nature and and and and aesthetically and and your design so that you could, evoke, you know, how sensitive. Yeah. Yeah. There's so much of a new when you mean, we we're talking about retail all the time. You see these blank spaces. It's just like soul sucking. You go and see a story. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I couldn't I don't mind being here because it's just so bland. It's just there's no there's nothing dynamic about space and you just wanna leave because you can feel it. You can it immediately. It's not just like seeing it or hearing it or smelling and you just just a sensorial less of your body. Like, I know there's a table next to me because you can kinda sense things. It's just our body reacting to how we are in that space. And it really gives gives us a feeling. And it's scientifically proven, and it's really incredible once we kind of understand how powerful. That really is. Yeah. No. Absolutely. And so, what are your feelings about the balance of technology that could facilitate Yeah. Some of these, right? You have light, chromotherapy and all these other things. So what's the what do you feel about that balance between technology because one aspect of wellness is disconnection, but having that also be facilitator in spaces. I'm I'm very excited about technology. I love You know, I'm always about we need more green time than screen time, but there's a dance that it's so important for us to understand that we have to have time away from tech. Because we're not fully living a human experience when we're connected to tech twenty four seven. I'm just gonna put it out there. But there's so much great technology for stores to interact with the the light you said with the sound. And bring us to places that we weren't expecting that are just like awe inspiring. So let's say you go to a store and x y z store, and it's this beautiful space that you weren't expecting. You're just kind of filled with awe. Is usually something that you discover when you're walking in nature. So if you can go to these places that dynamically create, environments that make you just feel. So taken aback and to taken in, there's technology there that can do so many revolutionary things that AI is a big part of that too and how are we gonna use AI for good. I'm really I'm really excited about all of it that's ahead for sure. Yeah. I think, because it would what would what Moma acquired and the opportunity of their digital art and what's that kind of vogue and, you know, kind of a sensorial immersion that happens all the way to their thing, like, with AI being able to get down to a personal level. Give me experience that differentiates from you because the fact of the matter is we think of wellness. We're all in different trajectories too. Though the ability for a brand new retailer to recognize where I'm at in that transformation or that journey, it's another opportunity to really connect. Yeah. Absolutely. You're absolutely right because we are on different paths, and I have a different background than you do. And what's gonna what I like may not be the same thing that you like. But how do we create spaces for human flourishing? I think everywhere we go should be a place of of wellness everywhere. And I think that starts with how we create our spaces for, for thriving. And we can do that with just minimal Even, I think they've done some great studies around birdsong, which sounds kinda crazy. He just very minimal amounts of birdsong in a space, makes people feel these. They tend to be no longer. And so even, like, you you really hear it, you're just it's kind of just there. And they're doing lots of studies in that in schools as well. So children tend to do better in school when there is a little bit of birdsong in. So It's it's really interesting, and they're kind of taking what they've been studying even in, in hospitals, bringing nature around the spaces, and then implementing that into even retail with just a photograph of, you know, whatever skincare brand or hat brand or whatever it might be and having the people outside. But just something visual that's also nature exposure, really forty seconds of looking at nature relaxes the prefrontal cortex. So if you can kind of pre bring those into your spaces, people see that just for forty seconds, thinking about how that really helps just relax the prefrontal cortex. And it's it's important because people will linger longer and stay and wanna hang out and and shop longer and get together. Yeah. I think it takes education for, you know, bringing the retailers to understand that math. Right? And then what can that lead to? I also think it opens it furthers the conversation we're already having. What's the point of the store? Yeah. And what is its opportunity in that moment of discovery, which is really what a store facility You know, because online's so much more transactional. Yes. You discover, but in a different way. And, you know, with more KPI tracking the halo effect, it opens up the opportunity of the store. Right? It's not just about four wheel profitability. And so when you think about things like what you're saying, You can tap into that and you get somebody to kind of transition from the moment there in the street till they get to that threshold moment entering the store into a welcoming space and these sensorial moments happen and bears that neurological thing that happens. They're at ease, and then they're They wanna stay a while. And one of the things we also asked about is, like, what what provides, like, a sense of, of emotional wellness And people want, like, personal spaces in stores if they can have, like, that relationship. We kinda see that with a lot more leisure brands. But, but also decluttered in simple spaces too. Oh, I'm so glad you just said that because during the holidays, I did, of course, a lot more shopping. And I I'm a retail person, so I prefer going to the store. I like to feel, see taste smell. I've just always been that way. So I was just shocked by some of the stores that were just so cluttered that were just so massive that I I was I was I know it was holiday and but I was really, really surprised by that. And I thought this is, you know, there's such a big stark difference between that versus something that's minimal and smaller and personalized and was like, oh, this is so beautiful and small and and I feel like I'm a part of this space and a part of this team where people and I feel welcome and It's just such a different shopping experience. I see that Gen Z's due and alpha really want to go to store and get away from tech a little bit and me with their friends and do what we did as kids. I feel I could go to the shops and try things on and just feel things. I think that's You know, I always feel like retail will have a purpose, and I think people wanna see feel smell taste. I know AI is gonna change a lot of that for us over the next few years, and, of course, the Metiverse and everything else. But I think the store experience is still where people will find and discover things that they weren't expecting. I think that's that's so powerful for a brand. Yeah. And I think that knowledge, because We asked what information do people want when it comes to services and to products, and they have the same answers. They want knowledge of the effect that these things are gonna have on their body and mind. They want knowledge of how products or services can factor into their routine or their lifestyle. They want knowledge of the impact of steps that might go into a service. Should they wanna continue that ritual at home? So I also think that's a big opportunity. Can't do that in the same way online. Yes. You can. And TikTok to an extent. Right. Yeah. That's so true. But also, you talk about the ritual. Right? That's what you just say, like, these rituals. So these people are looking for rituals and how they incorporate this bedding company or the sheets or nighttime, like, how you do your dishes at night. Like, you had to be a lot more intentional with your day and your time, and and then teaching people, like, how meaningful those moments can be when you incorporate this brand into your day and how they can also make you relax in part of your your wellness routine and your, you know, self care routine and everything. It doesn't have to just be about beauty. I mean, everything is wellness If you really think about how we how we interact and how we create what we do, it has to have intention. I always I like to work with brands that have real intentionality of what they're doing and and why they're doing it, and that gets me so excited because I see people that are really wanting to create places and spaces and products that are really going to help people and change their, change their lives and their world, and it's It's just so it's so cool. It's really cool. Yeah. I think people's, increased interest in awareness and education will help, the movement continue. So if we think just, again, the year ahead, or even beyond, we can go because we are just scratching the surface still people's awareness. When we think of the top senses. I think that people today associate with memorable experiences, it sound smell and sight. Think there's a lot of opportunities still around taste and touch and movement, especially digital art and things like that. But when you think of the top ones today, like, You mentioned birds sound, but any other trend, you know, in all your research and work with the universities and, the hospitals, like, when it comes to sound and smell and fat site. We talked about materiality in the woods and biofilia and and bird sounds. But anything else, like, what should brands and retailers be kind of focused on and and and studying themselves. Well, even, something called fractal patterns. So fractals are what we found in nature. So Like, let's say you're walking on the street and the trees are around you and those fractal patterns are, like, the dappled light on the street that the light that comes through the leaves, So you see these fractals all around you in nature. So when we are we aren't, again, these are not things we think about, but Yeah. We evolved we've evolved out side. This is, you know, and as we evolved outdoors, it's only been since the industrial revolution that we really had the greatest migration inside. And we have our our historic old brains have not been able to keep up with what we've been doing inside. So how do we create these environments inside that are kind of like the outdoors? So even having, floor panel, so interface interface carpeting does a lot of fractal patterns, for stores, for industrial spaces, even offices. So it looks like or maybe it looks like maybe like a stream. So it doesn't look like a stream, but it has a kind of color pattern of the greens and blues on the ground. So it's not so much in your face, but it's definitely, would be something that would look like, you know, outside along a stream or a water bed bringing in these kind of woods and rocks that aren't rocks, but they kind of emulate rocks. Even spaces that allow us to not just be on a flat surface. Again, you have to be very careful depending on where you are in a weak because of, you need accessibility to all, but sometimes we can have a space that's a little uneven because, again, our bodies crave abilities to kind of walk on things that are uneven. It's a static environments. We don't always like static. We need, dynamic environments as well. Just to be in that kind of even space of the dynamic is something that's beautiful and ever flowing and moving, and the static is gonna be the same light the same sounds, same sense. So how do we kind of and also static would be like my couch at home. So when I'm at, you know, in the afternoon, I need to kind of calm down. I need to static, I need to just relax. So we need that both dynamic and static to thrive. So I think, the fractal patterns play a big part of that in store. I'm seeing a little bit more of that, but not quite yet, but I think there's a lot to be done. Now even I've seen some places where it looks like there are leaves so that are, like, blowing on the wall. So you think you're kind of outside, but you're not. It's it's fun to watch because it's really it's really really cool. We did some things like that at beauty bar. I wasn't that advanced, twenty years ago, but we had so much of these dynamics spaces that I never thought about as dynamic of creating these, like, slate walls and and wood and, the sounds that we had and the fresh air kind of coming in. It was all integrated, and I never knew that was really that. Maybe that's why people lingered as long as they did. I did Think about it that way, not yet. Yeah. It gives you an idea because we work with a lot of companies that, like, we'll create, a sustainability framework so they can kinda score that how their how their store design is performing. And I feel like we need to come up with a wellness rating system. Are you touching these different senses, you know, and there's different ways you can you can accomplish that But even the way you talk, because I think every everybody gravitates to, okay, check the bark if I got wood, I got the plants, you know? That's it. That's just checking out boxes. And that's the sad part because there's so much that can be done that people want they would have to go. Like, there's always, like, we wanna have a space that people want to go, not have to go. And they just wanna be there because it makes them feel good. They like the environment. They like the people. They like the products and services. Like, you want to create a space that people want to bring family members and And that's I think there's so many great smaller boutiques around the country that are really creating impactful stores, and they're doing so well because They're incorporating all this and not shoving it in their people's faces. It's more of like, this is this is who we are, and this is what we like. And it's beautiful. It's really beautiful. Yeah. Okay. So before we go, five years from now. Right? It's like In the future. What what what's Jennifer, like, excited about? Like, where where do you think we go? Oh my gosh. So give me two one or two ways or maybe both. I'm not sure, but, you know, AI like, really Yeah. I can't wrap my head around it. I don't think any of us can. I think it's fun. No. And I I'm I'm excited about it, but also terrified by what what could be used for. I think we're gonna see many more, biophilic spaces. Much more greenery. We're gonna be bringing a lot more outside in, and I think it's gonna be really much more beautiful compared to the way we've created our cities in the space have been just these blocks with nothing. And I think we're gonna integrate a lot more outside inside, for health and well-being for all. That's what I see in the future. I look forward to that. And it's, you know, it's it's a shift from just consumerism mentality. As well, which is nice. It's holistic. We have to think about the whole body and not not just a transaction coming into buy. Like, have someone have an experience that they feel, like, the Again, the sensorialness of our spaces are what people remember. So, you know, that's what we want from everyone to just be there and feel the space and not just go in and buy something, like, unless that's what they want. I'm gonna go and buy something, but you want people to have to be like, oh, wow. I didn't know this was here. So it's like sense of discovery, wonder, and awe. We wanna bring that inside as well. Absolutely. Well, it was great to talk with you. Thank you so much. Yeah. Continue to follow all that you do. If if you haven't read, you can Also, Jennifer has a book, walk your calm. So that's or find her in Central Park, go for a walk with her. So thank you so much for taking the time. I appreciate you reading our report as well and and having a conversation with me about it. Again, I think we're just scratching surface, but trying to demystify opportunities so that brands and retailers could more authentically bring this into their approach when they think of the opportunity of the store, how it's designed, how it's programmed. So I'm gonna be searching some of the things that you shared today. I love it. Thanks. Thanks, Liz. I really appreciate the time with you. It's been great. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks again, everybody. For joining us.