Just Thinking… About Why Self-Work Is the Foundation of Great Leadership

Hello. This is Kevin Daugherty, your host for Just Thinking and the chief strategy officer for eight zero six Technologies. I have a really special guest today, an individual that I met, through, the building of my LinkedIn network, and just really impressed with this individual and, just his perspective on life and the great work that he's doing. But I'm gonna let him introduce himself to you. So, Michael, tell us a little bit about who you are. Yeah. That's a question that I think the answer has evolved over time, because identity can get a can be a pretty deep question. And so I've already you know, historically, it would have been, you know, I'm a sales manager, I'm a holistic health coach and but those are just, I think, parts of what I do every day that, don't I don't think actually answer the the question or do the question justice, but, you know, we could start from the beginning. I'm a son of, two parents. I'm a brother of an older sister. I'm a nephew, a cousin, etcetera. I've been an athlete. I spent fifteen years as a gym rat, you know, really, really dedicated to what I saw in the mirror physically, and sought out leadership roles. I was a team captain. I was, you know, on the exec board for a fraternity. I was, a manager of a water park. I've always sought out the the leadership capacity and, you know, went into sales. Sales was just, part of where I jump started my career and found success, found that it, you know, filled certain parts of the cup and, went into leadership from there. So I've been a sales coach, sales manager for the last five years now entry level. I find great reward and fulfillment in working with, the early twenty year old that is trying to launch a career in sales. Discovered a lot about a lot of the overlap between, you know, career success and just personal development. And, you know, so I started asking myself a lot of these deeper rooted questions. And one thing led to another, got into, you know, picked up some self development books and then went into being a holistic health coach. And, you know, I think, you know, who I consider myself today, I'm just a guy that, you know, I consider myself a lifelong learner. And, so I happen to find a lot of purpose and joy and feelings of importance in the world when I share things, when I, add value to people's lives, when I build quality relationships. So, whether it's how to make you a better seller, whether it's how to improve quality of your life, I'm just I stay learning and I stay sharing, and that's just, kind of where my footing in the world has been of late. So a little bit about who I am. I love that. That that's awesome. I, you know, as I think about that that focus on leadership. So it started at an early eight for you clearly, and and it's continued on through to this point in your life. But were there particular individuals or an individual that, influenced you in this pursuit of leadership, or is it something that just kinda came from within? Wow. I don't think I had heard thought about, I always struggled with the question, like, who's your hero, or, like, you know, having the celeb crush or, like, having that one person that I really looked up to. I was just like my cousin because he felt like an older brother. But, for me, I actually did some reflection on why is it that I really sought out leadership roles. And, I've had to really reflect on that because the reasons, the motivation for me stemming from, you know, wanting to be a team captain and being given the Roora speech in the locker rooms to going from lifeguard to headguard to manager to, you know, trying to always have that, like, head seat at the table was really, I mean, quite frankly, out of my own vanity. I thought there was a status and a recognition, of being called the leader, being able to domineer the the team meeting, being able to project my voice. I've always, been into my own voice. I struggled state classrooms growing up and, you know, I'm very opinionated and very type a. And so, you know, there's always something about wearing that c on your chest, you know, and being the captain and being the guy. And for me, I think that's just a function of wanting to separate myself, wanting to be seen. Didn't want to be caught in the masses, but wanted to be able to kind of, separate myself and, you know, in a lot of these, whether it's a team, a group, a work team. Right? A lot of the ways you separate yourself is vertically, to to to increase that that seat. That was probably where it started, but it's it's since evolved. I've I've definitely revised, you know, why I've been inspired to be a leader and it's really now it's about having the opportunity, the privilege really to empower other people and the fulfillment I get from, unlocking other people's potential and making it about them and truly taking that back seat. It's definitely evolved the way I lead, the my style, so to speak. So it's an interesting question that I've I've actually done a lot of reflection on. I love it. I well, since most of our listeners and our viewers are educators or people related to education, interested in education in some way, kinda like I'd like to turn back the hands of time and the clock to, to young Michael, in the classroom. You know, growing up, Any advice for young Michael, knowing what you know now that you didn't know then? I try to live life with zero regrets. Right? So I wouldn't necessarily go back and change anything. And it's probably a better, more more peaceful way to live anyway because I can't go back and change anything. But what that kid probably needed, you know, if I was the father of that child and could offer, you know, maybe two things of guidance, number one, use your one mouth less, use your two ears more, listen. And, you know, I think my voice has done a lot of good things for me. Right? So, you know, find a balance there, but, you know, probably would have stayed in the classroom a little more if I just, you know, used my ears more. And then along but then thematically aligned to that, like, listen more to your intuition, man. Like, I spent so much time as a kid, especially, like, grade school, high school, college, seeking validation, seeking acceptance, seeking a sense of belonging. And I think that those are the things that, you know, we're pro probably all seeking to some extent as just people. Not to get into, like, the hierarchy of needs and how to live a happy life, but, you know, I think at the end of the day, we need some sort of purpose or meaning, and we also wanna feel loved and we wanna feel seen. And, you know, my means to doing that was to be loud and was to try and get that from the external world around me. And I think what that ended up leading to is I ignored my own self. I self abandoned. I ignored the voice in my own head. I ignored my intuition. I ignored feelings of disconnect. I was a people pleaser. I, tried to make everything around me perfect, and really neglected how I felt internally. So, you know, that kid could probably be told, you know, use your ears more on the external, but then also, you know, pay a little bit more attention to how you feel and what you actually wanna do and the whole boundary setting thing. So Any advice for the educators? Because having been a principal and teacher myself, working with educators my whole career, we're all lifelong learners too or at least should be. And so are there things that we could take away from your story and your experience that might help us to be better with all the the Michaels of the world? Being a teacher, I I don't think is much different from being a sports coach or a sales leader. You know? I think there's a pretty hefty responsibility that comes with that type of role. And, you know, I've found that, I I've been a better leader of people, a better quote for people when I make it about the person and not about the task. And when I just understand with compassion that everybody's suffering from something, everybody's struggling with something, and everybody's a little bit uniquely different from one another. And so you have a class of thirty kids. Right? And each kid is beautifully different from one another and but they're all suffering from something. And, that has foundational, you know, deeper rooted impact into their ability to do algebra. You know? And so, you know, I think our school system, at least my experience as a student, was very much about equipping me with the tools and the skills to go out in the workforce and, like, contribute to society around me. My best contributions have been made in the world around me when I did the work internally, when I figured out what was damaged, when I healed myself, when I started finding ways to move in the energy of love more. And, I show up as a better version of myself, and then I'm actually you know, with the skills added on to that, I'm actually better equipped, to do that. And so, my ability to then lead people better, and to help people develop and facilitate their own transformative growth and progress is through self leadership, is through the ability to do the work on myself. Right? And so the responsibility of a teacher is heavy for twofold. Number one, you have the students around you. But number two, like, the means I think to having your true maximal impact on that student's life is if you've done the work on yourself. And and as if you, you know, understand how to love yourself and understand how to be self compassionate, understand, what it means to move from the energy of love and not with judgment. And you can then be more tolerant and more patient with your students. You can really see them for the people that they are, and you can really have an impact on the person that then you can add in layer on, you know, the skill development, the tools, the knowledge, the equations, everything, etcetera. So and that that's something that I think school could could really use. You know, I know we have physical education, but, again, health is a lot more holistic than that. That's pretty powerful, brother. I I think now about you and, and the way in which you tried to make everything as perfect as you could. Right? The things that you could control. And, and so you talked in part about your focus on your your physical well-being, fitness, and health, and so forth, and something that you found early on that that you could control. But if you could share a little bit of that journey too because, you know, as you mentioned at the beginning of this, part of that's about, you know, what you see, when you look in the mirror or whatever. And, but but what does that mean for the holistic person that you are and, and and the various roles that you you play in life? So Yeah. Just because you're fit doesn't mean you're healthy, man. Like, we'll start there. I, I I was fit starting from high school. I picked up the weight to hit the gym, you know, be it genetics, be it just taken to the science of it early, hitting growth spurts at certain times in my life. Like, weight lifting kinda came easier to me. I was not, like, the scrawny kid growing up, so I could pick up heavier weight, than the average maybe fourteen, fifteen year old. I wasn't I was by no means, you know, the Hulk, but, you know, I I think I had certain genetics, you know, that really lend itself to, defining out the shoulders and building up the tricep and seeing some veins in the arms and, you know, things that, like, stand out in the high school level. And when things start to stand out about you and this is why I start my introduction by saying, woah. Woah. Woah. Like, I'm not just a sales coach. Right? Because during that time in high school, when I started lifting weights, all of a sudden, I was I became the muscular guy. Guy. Right? I became the guy that was recognized. I stood out. I separated myself not from leadership necessarily, but from, you know, just being a little bit more defined, being a little bit more muscular, being a little bit more broad on the shoulders, buffer. Right? And, you know, there comes compliments. There comes recognition. There comes feelings of love and belonging. Right? And so all of a sudden, you know, I start to attack to that part of me where now it's about how do I just continue to chase this? Why wouldn't I? Right? It feels great to get seen in this regard. And so now I'm spending more hours in the gym. I'm lifting heavier weights. I'm probably cutting corners. You know? There's supplements. There's, I stayed natural, but, you know, there's there's just, you know, you're a high protein intake all of a sudden, and you're maybe putting up a little more weight than your form allows for you. Right? You start comparing yourself. You start looking at the guy next to you. You start looking at the guy in the mirror, and, you know, it starts to sort of creates this vicious cycle of why am I in the gym? And I I tend to think that, you know, today, generally, I'm gonna generalize. I'm not gonna make up a stat here, but I would say that probably most people in the gym are suffering, and are in that gym for not, you know, for reasons that maybe don't actually serve them, mentally, emotionally, and and then physically. Right? Like, my elbows are pretty damaged. My tendons are pretty sensitive these days. Like, fifteen years of really attacking my body, working out, to my body instead for instead of for and with my body. And so, I've had to do a lot of work on that. I've had to do a lot of deeper digging because there were times in my life where I couldn't get into the gym as my career started to pick up and, I could just many ways. I couldn't put as much intensity into my workouts. Well, seeing that, you know, degradation of your physical fitness in the mirror, well, if that's attached to how I feel I belong in the world and how I feel I'm recognized in my identity, Well, now my my sense of self is going down with it, and there's depression, and there's, you know, pretty heavy emotional damage there. So, you know, my my only two cents there would be that to be mindful of why you're in that gym and to to be mindful of, you know, what you're putting your stock into. Is it is it how you look in the mirror or, you know, are you doing it so that you're increasing your longevity and your mobility? And that for me is what I am trying to do today is take more stock into the health of my nervous system and moving my body because it's heart healthy, and it's conducive to longevity and quality of life and and really reframing why I'm in that gym. Well, that kinda takes me to this whole idea of a more holistic approach to life in general and everything that we do. So, you know, as you talked about something like, fitness working out, it can become a piece of what you do. It can be the thing that that identifies who you are, and it it may be different things for different people. You know, for you at that point, it was the working out and and lifting weights. For other people, it may be something in the arts or some some other area of life where they find their identity, their sense of belonging. So now you've made a shift and you're coaching other people in this, more holistic approach. Would would you speak a little bit to what that looks like and and how you help others to see things more holistically? Yeah. It starts with looking in. And that's literally what I was not doing in that gym. I was looking out. I was looking at the mirror. I was looking at the external world around me. And, your eyes are selfish in a sense that they're constantly scanning and sending information to your brain, and they're hogging up everything that's going on up here. And so then we become so heady. Right? And, like, especially with social media and technology and all of the things that just our eyes are continually scanning. We never really give this thing a break. And because we're so up in here where we lose and I'm, you know, up in here, I don't know if you're seeing this, but I'm pointing in my head. You know? We're we're not as much down into our core, right, where our heart is physically and, you know, where our intuition is, where our gut is, like, our core and who we really are as people. And, you know, there's a school of thought. You can disagree, but, you know, there's a school of thought that we're all infinitely worth, you know, worthy of being in this world that, you know, if we truly believe in this idea of equality that we all have our place in this world and that we're all lovable, we're all worth loving. Right? And so, you know, when I think about being in a in a coach's seat, whether I'm a teacher, an ed you know, an educator, a a physical trainer, a sales manager, a coach, I start there. I start with how do you see yourself and what does the voice in your head tell you about yourself? Right. And I go through simple journal exercises. Like next time you're in the mirror, where do your eyes go first? And when you look at what you see, what are you telling yourself? What is that narrative? Write it out, you know, or say it out loud and, you know, write that book. And then what is that book saying? You know, what is the story it's telling about you? And is there something to disagree with there? You know, and really challenge these narratives that come up and, you know, doing a lot of work on myself to better understand my own self worth. There's sort of like this self actualization process that has to, you know, kind of take shape. And as recently as yesterday, I did some conscious connected breath work, which is a healing modality to let your body free itself of trapped emotions. And these emotions are generated from the body, from your brain telling you these narratives. Right? Telling you why you're not as good as the next guy or, you know, why you're not as worthy or why you're not an extraordinary person. Right? And these narratives trigger these emotions and then just throw your whole life out of balance. So holistic health, you know, for me starts from within. It starts from, getting more mindful tuning out the world outside for a second, turning down that radio channel, turning up that radio channel of what's going on in your head, what's going on in your body, and, like, let's start there foundationally and build up and out. So what what has helped you to build those habits, those mindful habits? Did you have coaching, or is it things that you read? Because building that discipline when you don't have something really holding you accountable is a lot easier said than done. So so how did you build those habits? It's a good question. I think I I consider myself I'm I'm more of, like, the the the people watcher, the observer, the deep thinker. So for me, it was, I think we all notice things in the world around us, and we have this, like, the second guess, like, the second thought. It's like, something, you know, doesn't seem right. I'll give you an example. Right? Las Vegas in twenty twenty three, February. This is right before I went completely sober. And I'm walking, and I and I'm in Vegas for the first time in my life, and there's these you know, in order to cross the streets, you know, all the foot like, instead of crossroads, they've got these, like, escalators and staircases. And all of these, like, physically fit people are just on the escalators, and nobody's using the stairs. Right? There's, like, one person on the stairs for every thirty people on the escalator. And it occurs to me in that moment that it's kind of like, you know, taking a step back and watching the sheep a little bit. And it's like, wait a second. Like, this is a conscious decision that somebody is deciding physically capable, right, to take the escalator instead of the stairs. And then the topic of physical health where we need more movement in our world. Right? Like, something as simple as that. It's just like you can choose to ignore that and focus on the next casino you're going to and then, like, be in the conversation with your friends, maybe even be on that escalator. I just started to step off and take the stairs. I I was, you know, I my friends went on the escalator. I did the weird thing and went on those staircase. And I was like, I'm gonna make the conscious decision starting today to, like, you know, honor the fact that I have two working legs, that we all need more movement. I feel better when I move my body, I'm gonna take the staircase. And so when you ask me, like, how do you start to develop these habits? Like when you, when you see something and you're like, just pay more attention to it and like, do the weird thing and like, start to challenge what is normalized. Challenge what's normal, you know? And I literally Googled that day, why were escalators made? And I wanted to understand, was it for, you know, to help people who had disabilities, you know? And or was it simply for the lazy? Was it simply for efficiency? Right? What was it for? And so asking these questions, you know, obviously, you get into these rabbit holes. You start picking up self development books. Atomic Habits was a big one for me. The Courage to be Disliked is a fantastic book that, really helps empower people to reject normalcy and, you know, to embrace their uniqueness. And, you know, self dev books really did it for me where it it really fed me, that stimulation that I think we we kind of all long for in some ways, which is, you know, we're all thinking some things, I think. And, some of these books, I think, kind of help feed that a little bit and take you deeper into these holes and and lines of questioning. So, yeah, it it wasn't there was there's no beautiful playbook in terms of, like, this is how I built my habits, and I'm by no means perfect. I'm still working on a ton of things. But, yeah, again, I think it just starts with, like, seeing what you're seeing in the world and and asking questions. Yeah. I I'm not shocked that you mentioned atomic habits because as I was hearing you speak, it's kinda what helped me shape that question because I was thinking of that book as you were speaking. You know, when you're talking about movement, actually, I have a a former colleague, same thing. Never takes the escalator or the elevator, always takes the stairs, and had the same philosophy that you did. And he was an Olympic Olympic level athlete in his younger days. He's like, I can walk. I'm going up the stairs. And so, you know, being with him, I felt shamed because I'm like, I gotta do this. He's doing it. And so, it was a great influence on me. So now I think about it. I may still take the escalator sometimes, but I think about it before I do it for the the reasons that you and then he did. Yeah. And then just, you know, to kind of give you more, I think, tangible answer on, you know, the habit piece, it starts small and just, like, make decisions. You know? And, you you know, I haven't taken an escalator or I have taken escalator since, but, like, anytime I have the option to take the stairs, I'll take the stairs, you know? And I think the other piece to this is no longer caring about what people think. And maybe that's not phrased practically or, you know, you should still be mindful of how you treat other people and, you know, whatnot. But I think a lot of us, we don't make those sorts of decisions because, you know, we'll feel judged. We're not going in the flow of the sheep. Right? And so, it's gonna require a hint of courage if you really wanna build a habit for your that serves yourself. And that's been the epitome of my transformative journey over the last couple years is, like, really embracing this idea of, like, I'm doing this for me and how this stands out and how this is perceived by the world around me is not my task. It's not my problem. I can't control that. And whoever wants to be in my life is gonna be in my life on my terms. Right? And those are the right people for me versus trying to bring everybody into my life and be accepted by everybody. It's funny because as as you voice that out loud, you know, there could there could be the perception it's about me and that sort of thing that that's a selfish thing to do, which it's not at all, but that's that can be the perception and maybe part of what keeps people from making that decision because, well, if I make this decision, then I'm being selfish. Yeah. It's a huge misconception. It's being selfish in the sense of taking care of yourself. You know, you hear, like, put your oxygen mask on first in the airplane. Right? But I would even say it allows you to serve other people because when you show up as the best version of yourself, I'm a better brother. I'm a better you know, I'm not a husband, but I would be a better husband. I'd be a better father if I'm doing the things to serve my life. Right? I think one of the biggest misconceptions, and actually I think one of the, it can be used as an excuse because you trick your mind into not doing the things for yourself because you're saying, well, look at all the things I'm doing for other people, all the sacrifices I make. And I sacrificed myself. I self abandoned. I neglect myself. Well, I've grown up in a family where that was normalized and I watched their quality of life degradate. And, you know, from there, they were less, you know, qualitative in their relationships and they were actually doing a disservice to their relationships because they had neglected themselves to such drastic extent. And so now taking care of yourself. Yeah. Absolutely. It's selfish, but there's selflessness to that. You know, to take care of yourself is to allow yourself to take care of others. Love that. You know, you mentioned movement, taking the stairs versus the elevator and the need for the body to have movement. And I'm thinking of, classrooms today. Right? Since, again, our audience is largely educators. We're sitting in chairs at desks and listening to somebody talk or watching something on a screen or whatever. Movement with the exception of in between classes or maybe PE or sports or whatever is not necessarily a huge part of the day and the learning process. I was one of those, you know, little bit, outside box teachers. I I tried to incorporate more movement into the day, not just for the students, but for myself. Because I got tired of hearing my own voice. I got tired of just seeing them sit there and work on work. I thought this is there's something not right about this picture. Even though it's traditional and it's something you still see today happening, very frequently, but any thoughts on movement for learners and the impact that that could actually have on learning? Yeah. I always try not to get into, like, the primitive stuff, but, you know, I don't think we were I don't think we were designed biologically to sit in a desk for nine hours a day. Right? Whether it's sales or student, you know, it's, you know, biologically, I think we're designed to be hunters and gatherers and, you know, we've evolved obviously in a lot of different ways physically. But evolution's a a function of the environment. And if you continue to curate an environment that is highly sedentary, well, there's gonna be parts of our human body that doesn't evolve with that, like the nervous system that requires movement and, stress management. And so you start to see, I would imagine, increases of things like ADD and, certain disorders and certain things that, really are a function of dysregulated nervous systems and students who have test anxiety and can't focus and, have panic attacks. And, you know, our students there's a mental health crisis. Let's just call it what it is. Right? And, you know, I think it's because I'm not saying it's because they're sitting at a desk. Right? But, like, all of these things compound. Right? Like, the normalization of caffeine intake and sugary foods and, you know, then you add in the sedentation and the lack of physical movement, and then you add in the consumption of social media and, you you know, emotional dysregulation. So all of these things are compounding negatively against the student, and I think we're seeing some of the consequences of that in terms of their ability to focus and actually drive effective results in what they do and how they perform. So yeah, if you're a teacher that takes a student out for a walk, like, oh, man, sometimes that's all a student needs. If their leg is shaken, if they can't shut up, like, take them out for a walk, take them around the halls. Right? And, like, that's an opportunity in my mind to connect with the kid and, like, okay. Maybe you can't practically do that in the middle of a class. Right? But, you know, come up with, like, a little assignment, like, hey, everyone. Like, let's all just take a five minute thing here to just journal. And then, you know, once a week, I'm gonna take a kid out, and we're gonna take a walk. Right? So while everyone else is journaling on a prompt for five minutes, I'm taking a five minute walk with a kid. I'm gonna connect with this kid. I wanna hear what's going on. And, you know, I'm gonna they don't have to know this, but I'm probably gonna pick the kid who I feel like in that moment could probably use this walk. Right? Who can use this connection with a teacher, who can feel a little bit seen and isolated in a in a good way. Right? And that's an idea I just came up with. I've never been a teacher, and you guys are way more creative. Right? So yeah, man. Like, just just get a kid out for a walk. And it was it does one Well, there might be some practicalities, involved in that one, Michael. In a school when thirty kids are left in a classroom while the teacher's out taking a five minute walk with us. We can work through the details and the logistics of it later. We maybe take a walk around the classroom while the students other students are working on their journal thing, but but I get the idea. And I I definitely think more of that is needed, for all the reasons that you just described. Hey. We're coming up to the end of our our thirty minute episode, and so I don't wanna have our time pass without giving you the chance to share. Is there anything else about what you're just thinking that I didn't give you a chance to address during this episode? Oh, yeah. I'm always, just thinking. But, you know, just thinking about, how crazy life can be. And, you know, I am energized by these kinds of conversations. I am energized by taking my life experiences, my learnings, continuing to learn and share. And this just gave me an opportunity to do that. And so just always grateful for the moments in life that, you know, if you get really present and realize that, you know, it's eleven forty one AM on March twelfth of my life here. I'm sitting here in my Chicago apartment and I'm having this conversation where I have an ability to, like, I don't know, share something that maybe has a positive impact on somebody's life. Like, shout out to you, Kevin, for creating that space, for being so willing to just connect with random people and to, you know and then I think that's what we ought to do in the world. Right? And so, yeah, just just feeling grateful and just thinking about how people can do more of this stepping out of their comfort zone and breaking out any shells of limiting beliefs and realizing that everyone can do exactly what we're doing here. That's a great note of which to end.