Our Workforce and Education Systems Face Monumental Challenges That Call for Reform

Good afternoon, listeners and viewers. This is Ron Stefanski with another episode of disrupt that, where we talk to the determined do gooders out there, the passionate and purpose driven, who are helping us to make sense of this ginormously disrupted world of work and learning. And today, I'm going to treat you to an exceptionally it extraordinary do gooder out there, someone who I've known for a good many years in full disclosure, and I've worked with for almost twenty years now. But she brings to us today, a a very, very wise in perspective about some of the forces disrupting our workforce. And that's because Jane Oates, the current president of working nation, has been as the forefront of our labor movement here in the United States. She spent almost ten years on the staff of Senator Ted Kennedy, went on to work for the governor of New Jersey, John Corsey, and then took a position as the assistant secretary of labor for the US Department of Labor. Jane, welcome to the show. I've got so I'm so excited to have you here finally. I'm glad you put out in public how long we've known each other. It's decades not years. Right? This is exactly right. Well, you know, what we're gonna cover today is the benefit of our decades of experience because this is a really, really disrupted world on scale and pace we've never seen before. Would you agree with that? Absolutely, Ron. You hit the nail right on the head. You know, and I'm thinking about, you know, Jane and I had chance to catch up last week at the Verizon's conference in a new war. And it was a great it was a great conference. You know, and there were so many people that are working on this issue. And I think one of the the good points of departure for that whole conference was talking about a simple elephant in the room, and that is our workforce and our education systems are broken, and they don't filled the needs. They don't address the needs of a twenty first century workforce or a twenty first century learning community. And we have to square with that. And we have to bring a lot of things to the equations. So Jane, you started out as a school teacher and suddenly you got on the world stage in labor, economics, workforce development, all of it. So tell us what brought into the world of government affairs and working on some of these issues after deciding it originally, we're going to be in the classroom teaching. Well, and I was in the classroom teaching for fifteen years. It wasn't like I did a drive by. I taught in the Boston Public Schools for a year and then the Philadelphia Public schools for fourteen, by the way, the same school for fourteen years, which I adored. But it was You know, it none of this none of my career mobility was my idea. I was recruited by, an amazing woman, Margaret Wong, who was a researcher at Temple. And she, she said I was a great teacher, but I could influence a lot of a lot more teachers and a lot more kids if I came to work at a research university, and I did. And that research city ended up getting a lot of federal grants, and that's how I came to the attention of Senator Kennedy. Okay. So that gonna be an interesting point of departure because in our decades of talking together at conferences and over a cup of coffee, I've heard a lot of your stories. So when you look back on your almost decade long service with Senator Ted Kennedy, what would you say you most learned and most accomplished, in terms of workforce development and in terms of inclusive economic development because he was clearly a champion for those. So Ron, I I was just given so many opportunities. You know, I was brought down to work on higher ed and a little bit on k twelve, very specifically teachers. I had done a lot of research on teacher quality and things like that. So, of course, I did the teacher part of the elementary and secondary ed act, but I had a great partner. I I don't know whether you remember Danica, Donica Petrosius. She did all the other hard parts of ESEA, and I did, higher ed. But one day, the senator called me in the room, and the workforce investment act had passed the Senate. And he he said, we're gonna do a little change here. And I said, okay. And he said, you're gonna take over the workforce investment act. Because The staff person who had, been in charge of the that bill for the senator as it went through the senate and developed a language somehow forgot to include summer use employment. So the bill left the Senate without the provision that had been in the job training partnership at JTPA. So that that staff person was removed from the bill. But remember, That meant I had to negotiate with the house. Their bill didn't have summer jobs either. So it was really fine tuning the language, which is why you get you know, such sausage with the youth money being split between in school and out of school youth because we realized there was no pot of money anymore for mayors and county execs to do those summer youth programs, which were life changing for so many people. You know, even today, I meet people. That was their first job. So getting involved, you know, I always had a when I was at Temple, I ran the adult literacy program. So I knew how important, getting your GED at that time was or getting, you know, as I later learned a real high school diploma as an adult, how important those things were. And of course Critically important. You're right. Critic. Right. I mean, you can't do anything. We none of us can act accurately predict what ten years from today is gonna look like. But I would go on the record right now is if you do not have at the very minimal of high school diploma, you are not gonna be able to work. You're not gonna be able to compete in the workforce because you can't talk about stacking or credentials or anything else if you don't have a strong foundation. That's right. I mean, so that part, you know, the fact that adult literacy was in And of course, I was a special ed teacher, so I knew VR, and we had great staff that did the the nuts and bolts of that But think about that, Ron, somebody who had never done anything in workforce, to me JTPA were letters. You know, I mean, instead of with SEDa, Okay. Yeah. I heard about it and heard really bad things about it. You know, in Philadelphia, I heard that people low income people went and got trained and trained and trained and trained and trained you were a plumber's assistant tomorrow, you were a carpenter. Right. And you never got a JOB. And, you know, I mean, it was it was crazy. So that was the That was the most incredible thing, but there were so many. You know, I got to write the first charter school legislation I got to reoff I got to change the the department of in the department of education that funded me when I was at Temple OERI got to change that to IES, got to really modernize that, got to do NSF, I mean, you think about the incredible experiences I had in every bill that I got to work on because I was the ranking member or for a few fleeting moments, the chair's staff. I got to lead those. I got to learn so much. Got to talk to so many incredible experts. So every day was, you know, it was a mass every day was a master class in his office. Crazy, you know, when you think back on it, you know, one of the things we have to level set here is so many people complain about the workforce investment act and the fact that it took us twenty years almost twenty years, to create its counterpart, the Weola legislation, which improved upon -- Right. -- of course, this but it's the same time that was, in fact, a big step forward at that time. So we can't forget that it did unleash the possibilities. And as with many legislative endeavors, they need tweaking afterwards. You look at the implications. You look at the research, and you say, okay. You know, and the school formula has never never been right in work worse and we're still playing. Right? So I think there are a lot there's a lot to be said about the workforce investment act and in the in the collective efforts to finally get We owe a past. And now, you know, it seems if you're talking to anyone on Capitol Hill, that we're going to see further revisions to we owe it, but it's gonna take an appetite for changed from both houses, and that, we know it took twenty years the last time. It could take a while on this one. Right? I think that's right. I mean, don't forget in nineteen ninety eight when we started with this. It was the first time ever in our nation's history that we wrote a bill that was about universal access to job training dollars. Before that, it had only been the lowest income people or in some case you know, veterans and things like that on other bills. But it was it was a huge undertaking and one that we shouldn't take lightly. I mean, it is great to have a place that any anybody can go to and get information about jobs and demand. We just have to fund it. We have to fund it, Right. And is it safe to say that after after Senator Kennedy moved away from universal health care given the allies of what was going out on the side that he took up workforce with a vengeance and said we're gonna make this right and we're gonna provide you universal access. Is that a fair statement? Absolutely. And he had such great partners. I mean, Mike Dewein, who's now the governor in Ohio. Jim Jeefforts who, unfortunately, like Senator Kennedy has left us, but I mean, these people were committed, and they had such committed staff. You remember some of them. You remember Dwayne Sattler. You remember, Shory Kynman. I mean, they were I get, you know, I I get the attention in this world, but those those guys did and everybody on the committee, all staff on the committee. And then the house people did did the same amount of work. They just gotten under the credit. So so when you look back in how you look forward, you know, the workforce has never been more disruptive. We're looking at jobs that people are going to be applying for over the next five years that don't even exist today. We're gonna be looking for a new set of skills that isn't even being trained on today. And so when you look at these legislative initiatives, how do they help us mold, influence, and direct that activity when so much of it is frankly unpredictable. Yeah. I know. I think you look for what are the commonalities that are gonna remain consistent into the near future? I mean, first of all, we started with the first one, getting everybody, every single person in this country, a high diploma. Right? But then we look at, you know, what are the lessons we've learned? We know that the best programs exist through partnerships. And of course, we know that business is front and center and economic development, front and center at those partnerships along with the workforce professionals. But I think we've we've come to realize that in order to really motivate people and support people through these training programs, whether they're educational in nature, whether it's a community college, whether it's someone else doing a certificate, you know, an industry recognized credential. We need nonprofits with us. I mean, there is such a need to to make sure that somebody, some deserving student, be they eighteen or eighty or somewhere in between who has to admit that they have a flat tire and they don't have enough money to fix it, or they have to admit that they can't really go to school because they're their kids are hungry and they have to fight. They have to stand in line at the food bank. You know what I mean? The the that's not something you're gonna call. Yeah. That's not something you're gonna tell a professor because they're gonna judge you. You're afraid they're gonna judge you. That is something you're gonna tell a community based organization. Now that's absolutely right. And as you think about it, you know, we've made tremendous advances, but there's still a lot of work to be done in just to talk for a second about the work on the high school, the foundational credential. You know, we did see we have seen the emergence of a whole movement among major corporations now to create an industry out of here too far nothing, and that's education as a benefit. That's right. We had major leaders like Lisa Schumacher at McDonald's and the folks at Walmart. And they right. And they created these programs that provided people with that foundational credential. And look at what it's unleashed. You know, so I do think I do think the private sector has stepped up on the high school credential for adults. You know, movement, but I think there's still a lot to be done. We still have forty million Americans out there who lack a basic high were credentialed. You're right. I mean, we have to address this out into the room. Without that foundational credential, all the other things we do are not gonna matter. That's right. Because you're gonna have to learn on the job. And, I mean, Ron, you bring up Lisa. It's always amazing to me that people don't recognize McDonald's leadership. Walmart has gotten recognition in the past few years, but McDonald's was doing this back when I was writing the workforce investment act, you know, and And people talk about the great work that Guild is doing, and they are doing great work, but they forget that, and it's this has been doing this work for twenty five years. You know, I mean, So I don't think that I never wanna get into a fray about, who should get credit for what. We need all these people in the room. You know, we need people doing very targeted training. We need we need people giving, workers more options, you know, in the beginning of time, education as a benefit may may have been to one or two or three post secondary institutions. Now I think we've really gotten the word out that people need choice You know, they need to be able to figure out whether they learn best going to, you know, a class Tuesday and Thursday evenings, you know, from six to ten. That that's the way a lot of us did it in the past, and it's still the way a lot of people wanna do it. And yet, we have to be equally respectful to those people who wanna take asynchronous courses online who wanna take hybrid courses. We have to be it is not an either or it's an all. And so we need to give people that all those options. Well, thank you, first of all, because it's clear you've been watching this podcast because you've seen that we've interviewed Joe Moving from Ed Assist. And you've seen that we've talked with folks from Smart Horizons and you've seen that we've spoken to Lisa on the show. And so that's why You know this is why I've been so excited and were and and I've been tracking you down for the last six months to finally get used freed up to be honest. So It's great to have you, but also offering this sort of time honored perspective where we recognize these are big challenges. This is a forty you know, the high school dropout problem is a forty million people challenge that we have to surround. So we can expect to build the roadway for that overnight, but I do say the advances that the workforce investment first ushered in followed by Leo. I I think those are measures of progress that we we do need to take take note. And I also think that it's also a reminder. Sometimes, you know, when we were talking, in Washington recently, We were on Capitol Hill in both houses. And as I was walking the halls, I saw, I saw the plaque where JFK had his senate office. And I saw the plaque where Ted Kennedy had his office, and you walk down those halls and you see people having conversations and you realize this isn't the few we're seeing. Then the media today, we're seeing that everyone's super polarized. And everyone's working to not govern. I think that's not an entirely accurate picture. Your thoughts, Jane? Yeah. I think that's right, Ron. As usual, you know, you get it. I I can tell you that I've had conversations with, Republican and Democratic members and tons of Republican and Democratic staff. I mean, they are really being pummeled by the press for doing nothing. And the reality is you know, in the last several years, we got bipartisan legislation that finally dealt with infrastructure. You know, we we with the chips act. I mean, you know, it's not just New York state and Ohio and and Arizona that are gonna benefit from that ship's act. That's gonna be every and the United States that benefits from that, as well as from the infrastructure bill. And look, I mean, we we we have had some dramatic moments about are we gonna get appropriations, not are we gonna pay our debts? I mean, I I those soap opera moments don't impress me, but people need to remember that we haven't had an on time budget since I came to Washington. I don't think it's my fault. But we we so we're we're talking twenty five years. You know, it's not new and yet people paint it that it's new because this member got elected or this person was present. The reality is It was it's always been really hard to do appropriations bills because when it comes down to it, people vote for the as they should, for the best interest of their state or their congressional district, and everybody wants to see the runs. How much am I getting? How much am I losing? Yeah. No. I would I would completely agree with that. And during our visit, we did walk across the island. We met dams and Republicans, and you're right. They're do gooders on both sides. I mean, there's no And so I I think shows like this and conversations with people like you that have a track record and were in the arena doing this I think it's important for people in the public at large to hear these because, work is getting done. Progress is slow. It's never what we want it to be. But it's a damn sight better than it's been. And, in terms of the progress we're talking about, you know, on work. When you look at some of the disruption that's been brought about by the pandemic and by technology, by globalization, Where do you see? You know, how do we how do we make this work for people now? If I'm in a factory working, and I have a skill job, but I've been told that our factory is going to be transformed by industry four point o methods, and I'm forty to fifty years old. And I've got another ten to fifteen years. These are the people that I'm curious about. What do we say to them to help assuage their anxiety helps them understand how not to trip up on these things, but also how to empower them to take advantage of the inherent opportunities that are gonna and and are gonna require upskilling in some respects. Yeah. I mean, I think we have to we I think we've done a great job of increasing the numbers of incumbent workers who get training provided by their employer. And I think it's more equitable than it's ever been. It's not exactly where any of us would want it. But it's almost at the point that everybody gets the opportunity for upskilling. I think the next step is to make sure everybody gets the the opportunity to have really good as good as can possibly as it can possibly be career navigation. Both within that company and within that sector and then outside. You know, you see a lot of people who have been, laid off. I mean, certainly when I was at labor, the great session, lots of blue collar lay offs, lots of manufacturing people who had been at plants, some, you know, the first fit the foundry in in Afolis when that when Navastar closed. It was -- Alright. -- it was devastating. That was devastating to that worry. Oh my god. That was that was gut wrench for me, you know, to see these people who had gone to work in very difficult jobs when they were sixteen, seventeen, eighteen years old, had done twenty or twenty five years there and didn't wanna do anything else. It reminded me, Ron, of the when the federal government reduced the poundage that Fishers could get. You know, and we we tried to work with fishing communities east and west coast to say you can learn something else and they were like, get out of my way. I wanna fish. This is what I wanna do. My dad finished it. Yeah. Take that computer. That's right. Take that computer home with you. I don't want it. I don't wanna do that. And I think it was the same thing in logging states, you know, stage one lumber, really, when the paper industry has started to disappear from the Pacific Northwest and and, may. You know, with the same kinds of things we're experiencing. So first of all, we have to give people some hope in themselves and their skills. And I think A basic thing that I would love everybody to have to do is to list the skills they have in their current job. Because I think there are many people who can't they could tell you I can do my job and I do a really good job and I got a bonus, you know, but they can't tell you the discreet skills that are involved in that. And it gets more, I think gets more challenging, as you move into no collar and white collar jobs. You know, a welder can tell you they're an AWS certified welder. You know, a CNC machinist can tell you exactly what they do. But you get away from those highly vocational oriented, tasks and people are really unable to tell you mid management people, they tell you, I can manage my people. My people like me were productive, but that's not gonna help you find another career track. So I hope the next thing we do is really get very refined about talking about skills, not only the skills that are required for your next job, but what are the skills you developed on this job? Right. I think that's absolutely true. I think technology is also shaping this conversation as well. And let's look at what you were talking about with Navistar and what were talking about with the chips act. You know, we have technology now driving manufacturing back into the United States. Yes. And with additive printing and with additive manufacturing, we're gonna see even more of that happen. And so it's You know, it's encouraging to hear you talk about those things. And, of course, we've expanded the scope of this disrupted conversation to bring people from advanced manufacturing and technology into this conversation because, you know, I go to these, I go to these conferences, and I see these folks from from Lockheed. And I see these folks from Siemens, and I see these folks from Phoenix contact. And they're all working on technologies and manufacturing processes, but at the heart of it, they're also just in the business of building things. And I think sometimes we lose that general excitement in the press to figure everything out. I think if we walk around school systems after going to a main an advanced manufacturing trade show. And we brought those kids into that trade show floor and talk with some of those folks we wouldn't have some of the bottle necks. That's right. Because they would see engineering is not something very abstract. You get to build these things, and I'm struck by the number of gobsmacking developments that have happened. We recently had Mark NASH from outset medical on our show He and his manufacturing team at outset medical have created an entirely new device to allow people to do their dialysis at home and without needing special chemicals or without needing anything other than tap will. I mean, this is a totally revolutionary process. Right? We've had we've had Kevin and Lucas Singer out here showing us their advanced manufacturing system, a system that literally can print parts for a car frame in the morning and turn on a dime and print rocket parts later than the same day. I mean, we've moved to this software first manufacturing, development where things can happen so quickly. That I think what we have to do is return to some basics like you said foundational, you know, foundational credential, a bigger access pathway for people to get more skills trained, they're stackable and and may not require four years, but require more than more than high school. And then we have to also do this kind of current navigation you're talking about on every level where people, young people are just saying what the possibilities are going to be because they're going to be explored. That's right. Or any seeing that happen. That's right. You know, and for every person that wants to maintain employment in the time honored and family honored business. That's fine. They're living their best life, but there are also a lot of people who are gonna live their best life on the manufacturing plant of today. Which is nothing like the manufacturing plant my grandmother and grandfather built, you know, Chrysler car parts on. Yeah. And And look, I think that that advanced manufacturing just like its predecessor, builds wealth. It builds community wealth. Absolutely. How long have you and I heard the, you know, the the ratio may change, but for every dollar that someone has paid, that's four dollars in the community because they spent that dollar. And therefore, it builds small business. It builds, you know, community based kinds of activities and actions I think it's great. And I the one change that I would make in manufacturing, and I'm a you know, I try to be sector agnostic, but it's really hard not to get excited about manufacturing. Because there's no other sector that builds wealth like for the community. Agree. We really have to push against the occupational segregation that has existed in so many sectors. I mean, men have to get into teaching because it's gonna make teaching better women have to get into manufacturing and tech. You know, I mean, if if we continue this kind of roller coaster that we've been on, that there are certain jobs that are more women friendly and there are certain jobs that are not. We need we're gonna have a real problem in the future because Some of these jobs that are eliminated are gonna be heavily in one sec, for one sex or the other, and we don't want all women or all men unemployed at the same time. I agree, and you're jumping ahead of me here. So let's take a quick break. For those of you who've been listening and viewing our podcast here. This is Ron Stefanski on Disrubbed Ed with Jane Oates, currently president of working nation, former staff or chief senator Ted Kennedy, governor, John coursing from New Jersey and the US Department of Labor. Jane, let's give ourselves a break and come right back to take up that issue of what this talent community looks like going. Great. Thanks, Ron. Wayne us and stay with us. Come back to us on episode two. Thanks. I one.