From Medical Student to Healthcare Innovator: Shiv Gaglani’s Blueprint for Transforming Medical Education

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening to the holistic leadership podcast, the future of work in education and health care. This is Jeffrey. I'm Roach, and I am a co host, here of the holistic leadership podcast. And today, I'm so honored to have with us, a good friend, somebody that's certainly, in this space of education and health care. In many ways, has transformed so much of health care and education. And so I'm happy to have with us here, Shiv Gaglani, he's the co founder and chief executive officer of osmosis dot org, so many people will know him as he has has led and made a popular web and mobile learning platform osmosis dot org used by two hundred fifty plus health care and education organizations, and millions of current and future health care professionals as well as their patients and family members. Osmosis dot org was acquired by the Global Information Company Elsevier, and since then Shiv has returned to the John Hopkinskin's School of Medicine to pursue his medical degree. Shiv, it's so wonderful to have you here on holistic leadership podcast. I know, first of all, you are an amazing leader. As I know from from your colleagues and and friends. But but also your journey is such an interesting one. You launched a company I'm guessing even before you're age thirty, based on my math, which, is is just unbelievably fascinating and also you you launched it through your own experience if I remember correctly of medical school. And so I wanna kinda start there because you launched it based on what you were experiencing, what you felt needed to happen. And now you're back in it. And so I wanna kinda start with that that journey of of what led you to first launch, osmosis as a medical student and then, you know, kinda fast forward success great results, great impact, in that space, and then here you are back, back as a medical student as well. Well, Jeffrey, first of all, thanks for me on. It's always a an honor and pleasure to connect with you. And last time we saw each other, I think was in person at the Health Conference in Vegas, which was a great great time together. Yeah. So briefly, I started osmosis when I was a med student at Hopkins the first time around, which was twenty eleven. So my co founder, Ryan and I, Basically, we're trying to solve our own problem and the problem shared by so many other people learning health care in that there's way too much information to learn, let alone retain to pass for your school based exams or your board exams like the USM or NCLEX or, you know, all these other tests that never end And so we wanted to solve our own problem, which was to make learning more efficient, more fun, more engaging, and like any good, you know, Med students did a literature review when we were starting osmosis of, like, what are the evidence based techniques for learning better things like spaced repetition, test enhanced learning, memory palaces. A lot of things are now very popular and integrated by a lot of different companies. But back then, We're sort of in the wild, wild west, and most tools that med students and nursing students were using. We're just sort of like general purpose learning tools for language, Quislet for flashcards, Khan Academy for k twelve. But we wanted to build something from the ground up that was specific to health care. So Literally just built it to solve our own problem, not intending it for it to be a company, went through a year and a half of med school to preclinical curriculum, and then manage to get into a tech incubator, which, gave us the conviction and the funding to start working on it more full time and bring on some employees and then the rest as they say is history. So, you know, it's it's interesting. Right? Because you made a decision then too to sort of put that medical school journey on pause. And really, you know, begin to do some really innovative work. You you probably define in many ways what it's like to be sort of a medical entrepreneur, right, because, what you were doing at that time was true trailblazing work. Not not really had been done, you know, in twenty eleven and even and even for a while after that. But you were also, as I caught, really perfecting the eds and meds. When you look at when you look at health care education through that journey, from when you started to now having done the work at osmosis and now to think where you are. Can you talk about, like, a little of what you've experienced? Like, you know, now being back in it? Yeah. No. It's a great question. I like I also like that tagline you have, perfect the engine meds, like that. So, yeah, it's been, like, very kind of surreal to be full circle and now back as the student using the very product we built and not just our product, but certainly I use a lot of other elsevier tools, whether it's, you know, like our head of surgery at Hopkins is, like, I amazing educator, amazing surgeon named Doctor. Andrew Cameron, who's actually an elsevier author. Him and his dad, who perfected the whipple procedure, Andrew, John Cameron, wrote, a surgery textbook that's very well regarded. And so it's kind of full circle in that I'm approaching this phase of med school, you know, I have the clinical years to get, to go through with a much different attitude than I did the first time of med school. One, I think it's easier to learn medicine because of tools like osmosis and AI tools that are coming out, and, two, because, the stakes are much lower. Right? There have been some positive changes in the curriculum where we get more focused in the patient care as opposed to the testing. Both are important obviously, but, I think the natural conclusion of what I've seen over the past decade having committed my career to medical education so far is, that to train better like, there's so much more than, again, the testing and the regurgitation of facts to train great healthcare professionals And ultimately what drives me now more than anything is patient education going directly to the end to the general public and consumers We saw that with COVID, that misinformation can really have an adverse impact on, people's outcomes, but also thing that I've learned is that we just never will have enough endocrinologists to to treat how many people have diabetes or metabolic disorders So it's ultimately imperative that we get we change the systems and get to people earlier, change their behaviors so that we don't have as many die as many people with diabetes, you know, prevent that or reverse it so that we don't need thousands more endocrinologists. So I think that's that's really what drives me these days. You know, it's such an interesting thing. We've had on this on this show, several physician leaders, that I think, you know, have shared similar sentiments. Most recently, doctor Aaronfeld was was on here and and, you know, obviously, I think Jesse represents the new guard of of much of physician leadership in a really exciting way. But, you know, he talked about that challenge of certainly around physician, you know, the work around needing to educate at a time when we've got a lot of misinformation. And, you know, just today, we know, the US Senate had a hearing. You know, with tech companies around a multitude of different things of which, certainly, this is an important element. But we've also had doctor Chang, Austin Chang on, who I know you know is well. And and certainly Austin, like others has been a positive, voice, to addressing, you know, this issue and and certainly does it in a comical way on on TikTok and and other things. But you, yourself, have also started to really leverage talking more about, you know, your current journey, and and how you are, you know, addressing it through mindfulness and I'm sure that's intentional, because another topic we've talked on here a lot about is burnout, among health care professionals, You know, any thoughts you'd wanna share there from, you know, your own experience and and for those that are listening that are currently going through it, but also could be going through it. You know, thoughts you'd wanna share there. Yeah. It's a it's a really big topic, and and clearly, like, one thing we you and me have both committed a lot of our careers to is training more healthcare professionals getting more people into the workforce, but we also both recognize that there's a very leaky bucket, is that you can train a thousand more, but then if you lose three hundred you know, and, you know, what are you doing? Like, it's better to, business, the same advice business, we'd just get it's better to retain a customer than to have to get a new customer So same thing with our health care workforce. And for me, when I started med school a decade ago, the first time around, I actually got depressed. Was the first and the only time I got prescribed anti depressant. I gained fifteen, twenty pounds, felt pretty socially isolated. I mean, there were a lot of systemic factors to that, not just mid school, but, you know, it starts early on and I see it on the faces of my classmates now. And so one of the conditions of me coming back to med school that I put on myself this time, I'm not doing that. I I went through so much already that with the ups and downs of the company, other stuff in the personal life that I was like, I'm when I go back to med school, My oxygen mask is coming on first. I'm not gonna be gaining pounds, which is basically not about how you look. It's more about what that what those pounds mean. The sadness and the, you know, burnout and moral injury that we talk about. So, you know, I would prefer to, like, leave med school than to get depressed again, honestly. And a good good situation where I could just do that and it'll be fine. But, yeah, so, like, an example you see in my my content that I release on LinkedIn or Twitter, is I'm often on the treadmill desk. And so I know I have to study so much for, unfortunately, with osmosis and other elsevier tools. But I was like, I might as well have it stacked. And if I'm gonna be studying six hours on a Saturday, which is how I spend most of my Saturdays Saturdays these days, Let me just get twenty five thousand steps doing it, you know, walking at two miles an hour. So, yeah, I think it's a it's a topic that a lot of us have talked about and care about. I think I'm very optimistic about what the next decade will look like in terms of burnout, primarily because of the innovations we're seeing with AI. I think a lot of the reasons people will get burned out is medical documentation, bringing homework, you know, not being able to manage all the patients because, you know, and and then seeing patients kind of rebound or boomerang in the health system because they aren't adequately being taken care of or they aren't you know, following the, exercise or antibiotic regimens that we asked them to do. So I think AI will really help us address that. And and hopefully make the burden of practicing of the healthcare professional much lower. You know, it's it's This topic, you know, as we know, is such an epidemic. Obviously, the surgeon general has has, you know, called the highest levels that not just for physicians, but for everybody. And, you know, part of me often wonders too if we haven't gone far enough to educate and support even in the school and the education side of it, right, in nursing education, nursing school, medical school, you know, are we not building enough support aspects into the journey and the experience to help, you know, when you're in there? And then at the same time in the workplace, the sheer fact, we as we know, there's a lot more work to do. When you look at work you've done in osmosis, you have certainly been very intentional about, you know, and I and I see this even during COVID, you came out with some really innovative, not just educational, but resources to support both consumers, families, but then also providers and clinicians to support them in their work that you do. Anything you anything you've seen, you know, evolve there, you know, from the first time to where you are today. Yeah. I mean, we definitely from day one had a very strong focus at osmosis on making making the journey a more enjoyable. So we build a lot of communities where people can support each other. Our our VP of People, Hillary, runs these osmosis medical education fellowship programs, which have been wonderful ways for people to connect med students, nursing students, and others to connect and support each other. We collaborated with Ariana Hoffman to build a whole course on nurse resilience, And I think those are just, you know, those are all multifactorial ways to address, this issue. And I think, again, the evolution of it will go beyond just what can an individual nurse or doctor do, but what can the system do to to, alleviate the burden that is, you know, endemic to being a health care professional. Know, this it is a much more stressful job. Honestly, like, you know, when you have people, just by nature of the work, you have people who die. Right? Like, I'm I'm right now in the surgery rotation, And we were doing a case of a patient who Hopkins and these surgeons wore her last hope pancreatic cancer. And, you know, she was turned down and off of an operation by other surgeons who aren't as confident in their ability to to resect the tumor. But ultimately, when we got into the cavity and and or into the pancreas and saw that the tumor was actually, adhesive to the, to the artery, you we had to close-up. We couldn't do it. And I was so demoralizing and discouraging for the surgeons, obviously, devastating for the patient and her family because now it's palliative care. That's you just don't get another jobs. Right? Like, we all have stressful jobs, but, like, that is a uniquely healthcare specific issue And, some people constitutionally when they encounter that, that's just gonna burn them out and injure them, you know, injure them across the board. And so, I think this is one of the reasons I've become so excited about not just therapy, but psychedelic therapy, which is being pioneered here at Hopkins. And so I think things like that, interventions like that can really help address, burnout as well. So I'm very bullish on AI and psychedelics as two fields. That can help us address, you know, societal, issues like clinician burnout. So for the layman, psychedelics talk a little bit about that because I think when some people hear that, they they may go back to the sixties and and, think about a whole different thing. But, you know, for the layman, you know, unpack that a bit. Yeah. So hopkins is the center for psychedelic and consciousness research, CPCR, which was started by Rolling Griffith, who unfortunately, recently passed away. A really successful scientist, who had done so much in pharmacology, over course of decades, but he helped along with people like Bill Richards, bring back psychedelic research mostly with, you know, psilocybin, MDMA and LSD, among other psychedelic compounds, in a controlled, you know, evidence based manner, so not, you know, sixties woodstock, but, you know, think about FMRI studies in Hopkins labs. And then Michael Paulin, the author of the omnivore omnivore's Lema wrote a book a couple years ago called How to Change Your Mind, which is also a Netflix Docu series, and popularized psychedelics. The largest psychedelic conference was actually held last year in Denver, Cyclic Science. And we think MDMA will be approved in the next year for, treating PTSD. There's already several phase three clinical trials that have been done for MDMA for PTSD and veterans and then people who are survive sexual assaults. So if if you just look up Hopkins psychedelic, there's all these studies you can look at, but, it's very promising that this can address you know, specific conditions, and there's even some studies of healthcare providers with psychedelic therapy. Yeah. That's so interesting. And I mean, to your point, you know, when you think about, you know, as I as even on this show and other times, you know, talked with others. I mean, the the worst situation is when burnout leads to moral injury. Right? And and, unfortunately, in healthcare, we're seeing that, far too often. You know, another guest on on our show before doctor Jonathan Fisher, who I I I pretty sure you know pretty well too. You know, has his book coming out just just one heart. And, Doctor Fisher obviously also talks a lot about the idea around mindfulness and and the work that has to occur there. I was speaking recently to a a more rural, health care, system, medical staff group. And I, you know, I was I was I guess I should say I was shocked at one point, but then maybe I shouldn't be. I had asked them with executive leadership in the room, because you know I'm not one to shy away, from from being inclusive, from an accountability perspective, how many had heard of the work of the surgeon general around the mental health framework, that, you know, he he put out you know, pretty widely a year and a half ago. No one in the room did. You know, and I and I thought, like, You know, again, I know physicians are busy. I know health care executives are busy, but somebody, in the room, HR, I would have thought somebody would have heard of it and thought about how you incorporate that. When you look at the work you've done, to even lead, you know, in many ways, consumerism and health care around education. Why is it that, you know, at so many different levels, people aren't hearing about these things when when there is stuff I mean, last year at him's, I presented on the mental health framework in a session. Same thing in a room of a hundred some people, leaders, clinicians also hadn't heard about it. A lot of noise we know in our in our media and a lot of other things. But what what do you think we need to do differently to make sure these resources actually get to the people that ultimately, it's gonna make an impact and a difference No. It's a really good question. I mean, we we know that, like, there are lifesaving therapies right now, like, paxilobid, for example, for COVID, severe COVID cases, And the White House is doing, a lot to try getting more people to understand when and how to use it. Same with vaccinations. I mean, we've seen public health failure with vaccines in general. And now it's become a political issue, whether or not you get vaccinated. And so I think I think generally there's just so much noise and AI will probably make it worse, honestly. I already is sort of making it worse in some ways. And he may get better in other ways. But, I think, you know, Jeff, so then Jeff Weiner, I think, or The guy was CEO of LinkedIn recently, most, not most recently, but after Reed Hoffman said it best that it it was a something that I incorporated in how I was leading osmosis in that I think he said something like, to paraphrase him, you have to you have to say things over and over and over until you're sick of saying it. And even then, people won't hear have have understood it. And so that was a big game changing moment for me because, you know, you can talk about the company values and what we're trying to accomplish. But maybe that day you were talking about it, someone in your, you know, were sick. Like, a new employee was sick and never heard it. Right? Or they were busy. They heard it, but they didn't incorporate it. There's all these messages that people are bombarded with that they just aren't ready. Like, they can hear it physically with their ears, but they aren't ready to actually action upon it. And so repeating it again and again and again and again and again. And then is is one part of the equation. And then the second part is actually making it so easy Right? Like, the best products don't really need marketing. They're just awesome. Right? Like, they're, you know, things that people word-of-mouth will spread. They're just so much better. And so I think similarly the best sort of interventions, whether that's, like, you know, a policy change we can make for, like, a hospital policy change that someone can make or it's a new product or app or something won't require that much education. Like, they'll just sort of diffuse because it's way better. Ten x better than the other next thing. I wanna talk about leadership. Because, one of the first things I experienced with you and your team was a strong sense of connection. I can remember, you know, when I first met, met you and your team, Didn't matter what level, what title. Everyone just was authentic. There was just a genuine desire to build a relationship to transform and impact health care, and education, which ultimately would impact patients and and and families. Obviously, there's there's an innate you you referred to that, you know, in in how you would repeat things and and such. But I wanna unpack, you know, I tell people all the time. I can remember even, you know, when I first met some of your teammates, you know, we were talking about family. And, obviously, you're you're a very strong family person. I can remember even talking to you once during a hurricane. Because you're with your parents in the middle of a hurricane. And, I thought, wow, like, look at this guy flying as busy as he is. He made sure to be there, for his parents. But but one of the things that resonated was I remember Andy Mendelson, sent me a, sent me a, an osmosis bib when when, we were having our second son. And I remember my wife got it, and she's like, what what what is this? You get some interesting things from all that you do. And then Gina, she opened it, and she was like, wow. Like, this is true. This is true, like, an authentic organization. With a, you know, really, really nice note. What? What made you lead like that? Cause there's gotta be something because I mean, I think this is a this is a story that really needs to be told, because what you did at osmosis was true authentic transformational leadership. And I know it's still true today among your colleagues because, you know, anytime I see them, I still see it. And so, you know, just share a little bit about that. That that's really kind of you to say thanks. Thanks for sharing it. And I think I'll like, the phases of how we grew our culture. One was, just kind of serendipitous, like early stages, zero to ten people, Who do you like working with? Who do you like being around? Right? Like, and and Tony Shea, the late great Tony Shay who started Zapos and wrote that wonderful book, delivering happiness, has a great quote, which is, like, you know, make your, like, basically look at the first ten people you hire and look at their individual values and those are your company values. Right? So If you're able to be in the trenches with those people for several years, you know, chances are you like hanging out with them. And if you just do some introspection of why that is, you know, the values can kind of flow from that. And so, you know, we were very early on about how do we build an you know, not how do we just like hanging out with people and that becomes, like, the original company culture? But once we got to thirty plus people and, like, many the people being hired were people being hired by people. I had hired, you know, it was clear we had to actually state our values And that's when we went through a a several month process of getting real stories and ideas around things that we stand for. You can't stand for everything. You have to kinda pick and choose. And, honestly, we made some bad hires along the way. Right? And it was actually those people who helped clarify to me what and they aren't bad people. It just, you know, they just don't meld with our values. Right? They have different values. And then we started advertising our values upfront, like, part of the application process to even join osmosis was to watch our video and values and to do something that shows some of your values, like, sending someone a spread joy card. Right? To even apply to us, Moses, you have to send somebody a greeting card and, like, forward it to us. And, like, those who immediately like weird. Why would a company do that? Self select out, then just out. Like, I mean, we want them to not select in. Like, we just wanna find people who naturally are like this. But then those who aren't, we actually, won their onboarding checklist items as they go through a relationship building workshop that I put together because I wanted to kind of formalize it of how do you authentically connect with people and that story that you mentioned with Andy is a great one. We have, you know, I'm really glad teammates like him and others listen, and they hear just off the cuff when you're making small talk. Hey, you're, like, my partner's pregnant. We have our second child coming in a couple months. And then not just listen, I call it ten percent more effort, hundred percent more care. They take ten percent more effort, which is, you know, it's one thing to just hang up a Zoom meeting with you and just go on to the next one. It's another thing to then write a quick note to our team and say, hey, like, we have a process led by the wonderful, you know, built by Hillary Acer, our VP of people, scaled by Lindsey Smith, who who, has really risen through the ranks here at Elsevier Now, and They scaled up the process to take what we were doing individually and and make it so that if if a teammate hears something, like some someone got a new dog. They'll message Lindsey and her team and her team will get the wheels in motion to get a dog leash out to that person. So we sort of build a process, but not automated it so that it's inauthentic or not human like. Right? There's a human touch to it, but then the scale to make it possible to actually act on it. So I'm hoping at some point you write a book, about that. Right? Because I think, I mean, let's be honest, right? Workplace culture in twenty twenty four, just like in twenty twenty three, is, is not really in a good place. I mean, when you look at, you know, so many organizations, unfortunately, especially in healthcare, but but doesn't matter every industry. We see probably, by far, you know, some of the most significant mental health And some, you know, some studies clearly do indicate it's a lot from leadership, bad managers I don't usually like the word use toxic because I think it's kinda like a oxymoron, frankly, with with leadership, but but you know, there's something about about that that I think is important because, again, you you were able to successfully also scale that. And now today, even bring some of that influence into a very large company and still do it, which I think is is, you know, shared by miraculous in some ways. You know, I'm curious when you look at your entrepreneurial story, and and you look at, you know, now being back in in medical school. If you could go back in time to to a young shiv, What would you tell yourself that you've learned today that that, you know, would would be something that you think others would learn from? Really good question. And and Well, one one one my main answer is, like, you know, a a collateral question or, a related question is what were you change? Ten years ago, and honestly, I can say nothing. Right? I think it's important to, say that because there's no counter factual, and I'm very happy with how things worked out. You know, so I don't wanna change go back in time and, like, you'll make one change that then changes everything. And maybe some of those outcomes would be better in some capacities and maybe some would be worse, but I think it's important not to have regrets about things because everything you did made you who you are. And tomorrow, like, the next second is a new moment to change too. I I would say advice tends to be very contextual, and you can find competing advice for everything. Right? Stay in school, leave school. Raise money. Don't raise money. Like, there's always a million reasons to do both sides of the equation. And so the the only consistent advice that I think transcends context, are three things. One is reading, reading widely. Like, that was a big unlock for me at osmosis. So the culture What you do is who you are as a great book, creativity inc, another great book, and, I already mentioned delivering happiness. Boom, three immediate books. I would share, like, anybody looking to build a culture. These wonderful people who built Pixar and Andresen Horowitz, They've already written about it, and you can learn some ideas and not maybe do the exact same things, but just, you know, you see what's possible. So one is reading does read often widely develop that routine. Two is fitness. Right? You know, OSHA has a great quote or I think it was OSHA or consignments. I'm sorry. I'm following quote. Whereas, like, you know, the healthy man wants a thousand things, the sick man wants one thing. Right? And so making sure that you're, like, if you aren't healthy, like, anyone of us who's had, like, been in bed because we're have a fever and are chills knows that the only thing we want at that moment it's not, you know, to get this award or to, you know, get into that school should be healthy. So taking care of your health first and foremost, not putting your career ahead of it. Like, you know, a lot of physicians and nurses do, is is is critical because that also extends your potential for impact. And the third is relationships. You never go wrong by building authentic and real relationships, and that could be in the form of a couple one or more real just one really good friend, really close friend, or it could be a thousand more positive interactions, right, that person who you know, checks you in at the hospital, having a good interaction with them. Right? Like, it doesn't have to be strangers not talking on the, you know, or all looking at their phones. It doesn't have to be people cutting out, getting road rage and cutting each other off in traffic. We can just kind of add more grace and joy to each of our interactions, whether the most fleeting interaction or some of the most, you know, meaningful deep deepest relationships. So I think those three are the things I would share. Like, I've come to it, But I wish, you know, if I were to go back to ten year old shiv and go back in time, I'd be like, health, reading, and relationships, number Cops free things. Just keep investing in those. It's powerful. I wanna ask you twenty twenty three, I think, if I remember correctly, was year of the zebra. Right? And, you'd obviously, you know, to your fitness element, you do some of the most. What I can imagine will have to be the most challenging marathons, and journeys, but they're always very cause oriented. What's next? It's a really good question to that. I really wanna be doing the next fitness thing. No Ironmans or mountains anytime soon. I've I haven't identified it, but just med school. Med school is the big, the big marathon at this point. So, working through that. And then come twenty twenty five, hopefully, something fun, like, I've thought about el camino would be a great, a great thing to do with friends or family. But, yeah, if you have advice, I mean, I'm curious what's your answer to that. And if you and if you have any advice, to give me it too. I'd love to hear it. Yeah. You know, it's it's funny. Right? I mean, I, you know, my my only advice on that, right, is, I'm learning quickly that my nine year old is gonna surpass me very soon in the speed. Right? And, you know, we we ran a five k in November. And, you know, like you, I mean, I have learned sort of a harder way in many ways how important how important fitness is, too. And and, you know, to your point, for me, it's it's been such a physical but then a mental element. And that wasn't always the case. I mean, you know, those that know, I mean, back when I was in middle school, high school, in fact, I was looking at this at this today, you know, I was I was an obese, obese child. And I was looking at, I I still have medical records that say the doctor at, by one point, called me in college, morbidly, obese. And, you know, which yeah. I mean, you know, and and and in many ways, I mean, for my height and and the weight I was at that time, you know, six foot, two hundred eighty pounds, was was not healthy. And, you know, and then went through a journey of of, you know, probably not eating the best, you know, I remember I did a hundred calorie packs and would really, like, count the calories and exercise a ton and lost a lot of weight. And then you know, obviously got diagnosed with celiac and that certainly contributed to even more weight because I was anemic. And but what I learned in that journey was was, to your point, that you had to, like, shift your mindset. For me, so much of that was actually I didn't believe I could. Didn't believe it at all. And and this morning as I was running on the Peloton, one of the instructors said how important it is that we shift our mindset from I can't to I can. And I thought about that all day. I was like, wow, that's pretty profound. It's quick and easy to say, but it's profound because that's something I'm I do too often. I'm like, I can't do that. Instead of just thinking, oh, I can do that. And my finished journey was very much like that. And, you know, even last year, you know, I was still doing it, but then increased it, again now. And, it's been, you know, so powerful, but I still have to accept the fact that my nine year old is gonna be faster than me soon. Because the last five k, he was only about a minute and a half behind. And, you know, interesting. Right? But but, you know, To your point, it is infectious because you do learn, like, you wanna do the next thing. You wanna run longer. You wanna run more. And, so it's been interesting. But that's definitely an element that, you know, for me, has definitely been life life changing. And, you know, something I wish I probably did earlier because now I feel old older than you, I will add. And, you know, I feel tired at times. Now maybe it's having three kids, but, but, it's definitely an important element that, you know, speaks a lot and as many know, you know, for me too, it's it's it's something that I feel so important to do to what you referred to earlier because having lost my father to a sudden cardiac arrest. My kids always, you know, they know what he passed from and understand it, especially my oldest. And so he always is worried and know that that, you know, is that gonna be his dad? And so, you know, those elements of the fitness are important to me. Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing all that. I'm sure sure when your nine year old does surpass your five grade, it'll be it'll be bittersweet. I'm sure they'll be part of yourself. That'll be like, oh, man. I'm slow, but the other part, which would be a proud proud father as you deserve to be. So that's that's awesome. Yep. Yep. Awesome. Well, Shave, I wanna give you the last word share with anyone where they can find you, check out these cool videos of you on the on the treadmill and, you know, getting your thoughts, even though we know you're deep in deep in study there too. You know, and where can people find you and find those videos? Yeah. Just find me on LinkedIn, Shiviglani, or email me at shiv at osmosis dot org. I love connecting with people and anyone who's a friend of yours, Jeffrey, results are a friend of mine, so would love to love to hear from them. Awesome. Schiff, thank you so much, and, obviously, continued you know, blessings and and great work as you continue this medical medical school journey. Thanks so much. And look forward to connecting with you at the next in person event, hopefully. Sounds good. Thank you so much. Take care. Yep. Take care.