From Classroom Insights to Academic Research with Young-Suk Kim

Welcome everyone to the art of implementing Well Show. Today, I have a great guest, Young Sou Kim, who is a professor from UC Irvine. I met her through a convening that I went to about the science of reading and thinking about how to implement and prepare teachers better to, teach the science of reading, and I saw a couple articles that she had published and I thought She'd be a great person to have as a guest for you all today and I'm excited to introduce her. Welcome Young Sup. Thanks for joining me day. Hi. Well, thanks for having me. Yes, my name is Young Sou Kim. That's my formal name, but informally, I go by Young Kim. I'm a professor and the senior associate dean at the School of Education at University of California And, curious, like, how did you get involved with the science of reading as, like, a primary area of research for yourself? So I was a classroom teacher in primary grades and also high school in San Francisco. And the students I worked with were primarily multilingual children from, language naughty backgrounds, including many English learners. And I noticed the pattern of my children in their reading development. So for example, children who had decoding skills in their l one, the first one was tended to grasp their l two reading a little bit more quickly than children who did not. So I became curious about reading development and I to my, doctorate degree in that area. Since then, I've been studying children's reading development, their language development, cognition, and writing development as well. Now the other piece here is that, you know, I mean, I study kids development and effective approaches to promote their reading and writing development. That's one side of work, but the other another part of my work is working with the pre service teachers or an in service teachers. So pre service teachers are teacher candidates who are enrolled in teacher, education program here at UCI and in service teachers are the teachers who are in practice already. So, I, you know, this is a very important part of my work as a former classroom teacher. I consider this part of, my work very seriously. So that's why I guess a part of the science of reading debate not only as a researcher, but also from a classroom teacher that topic is very close to my heart. That's great. Actually, that leads me into one of my questions, which is, you know, as since you were a teacher that had to, prepare students for literacy, and now you're researching how to do it. What what are some things that you're reflecting on that you wish you had as a tool or insights when you are a teacher now that you're actually doing the research around this. Well, that's a really good question. There are actually quite a few things. I wish that I had kind of really generally research informed, and that evidence based practices. I, you know, learned quite a bit about teaching before I started teaching but the science space, was not clear to me. I'm sure, you know, what I learned at the time was based on research, but that connection was not very made very visible or clear to me when I was a teacher candidate. So I think, you know, that emphasis on research based and evidence based practices or teacher teaching practices I think it would have, been helpful for me when I was teaching. The other aspect was that materials, I guess, from updated research was not were not readily available as a teacher. You know, research, I mean, I write academic, articles But then, you know, teachers, as a teacher, I was not able to access those. And even if I was able to access those, I would not have I did not have enough training to really be able to follow. So one thing that I wish I had was more kitchen accessible, information about, you know, kind of a update, updated information about reading development, writing development, effect and their implications for teaching and reading and writing. And for you, was there a turning point where, you know, you were teaching and then all of us, and you said, I I really need to, like, research this because I want to, like, amplify my understanding, but also share it more teachers? Like, was there a turning point for you around making that shift for you? Well, I think that was it. I cannot think of a particular point, but it was, I know, process. Right? So as a researcher, I get evaluated for my academic work, my publications, you know, in academic journals and to the scientific community. But as I teach and work with pre service teachers and in survey teachers. My work, my research is all of them are in the school settings, and I have a very direct interactions with teachers. And do you do, you know, continue to talk with them? And It's just kind of recognition that, you know, teachers are very, very eager to learn more about it. It's just that they, you know, that the connection between academic world and then teaching and practice, you know, the the gap. You know, has remained large and, I think the debate on science of reading really kind of put that in the upfront. So people actually started recognizing that gap. Yeah. So I, you know, first got those to some of your writing and research, in an article that, you titled the science of teaching meeting And, I thought it was really interesting because you talk about a a lot of things. The first thing that you talk about is you know, this boat, like needing to have the belief that you need to relearn how to teach reading and literacy. And so, I'm I'm curious, like, if you could just spam on that a little bit as to one of the key topics that you bring up. Sure. I I guess I will say a couple of things. One is, science is ever evolving. Right? So that's why there's research. Right? So, you know, we know certain things at this point, but down the line in five years and ten years, we have new discoveries. And those have to be reflected in an ideal world. Those discoveries will be reflected in practice. So that's what I mean by, you know, we I guess we can naturalizing or working on, I guess it's, what I mean is continuous learning of teachers. That's actually, what teachers commit to when they decide to when they decide to, go into the teaching profession. So, you know, They get they learn about reading development, writing development, and effective, instruction in their in service development, but also learning continues during their in service. So that's what I mean by you know, getting updates. You know, it's what it it it goes into the adult development literature and adult development literature and also changing one's behavior. That's really hard and it takes a really long time. Right? That's actually one of the things that people in the teacher, education and other, fields realize you know, because, you know, certain practices take long time to develop and changing such, practices take a really sustained time. One piece, I mean, the very beginning, starting point for that is recognition of the need of change. Right? So it starts with that, but then what's, important for follow-up is, providing actually systematic, opportunities for teachers to engage in to engage in growth and learning opportunities. So, you know, districts, can provide opportunities, but that opportunities have to be very systematic. People tend to, use so called workshops, but literature is very clear. Like one of workshops is very limited in impacting or creating real impacts to have real impacts, a series of intensive workshops have to be provided followed by series of coaching sessions. Because knowing is one thing and understanding is one thing, but actually translating into sustainable, you know, practices requires actually support very close, support like someone coming in working together with you for a meaningful time. Right. I mean, wouldn't it be great if we went all into one work up and we could figure out how to do everything, you know, with expertise. Right? Exactly. Exactly. So, I mean, I think that brings up a a great point to second point I often talk about implementing well is, the need for that collaboration to happen, right, and you really do that coach with you that has that level of expertise, but we also talk about, like, kind of the zone of proximal development for adults where know, how do you continue to learn and improve, but not get so discouraged that you can't move forward. And so I liked the idea of the mix between workshops and having coaching. But, you know, as you know, in so many school systems, they don't actually provide the time to do all of those things, and and you've probably experienced that in your own experience. And so what what's systems would need to change. Do you think in order for us to invest in the development of our in service teachers? Well, that's a very big question. I mean, in an ideal world, I can talk about ideal word, And there's also then there's a constraint in realist, you know, the constraints in real world. I mean, in an ideal world, All these things will be connected to actually pre service training, alright, pre service teacher development, and they will have very, very tight connection with in service induction and, you know, sustaining teacher development. Right? So there would be, really consistent and systematic support for a teacher development, that includes, providing opportunities that are organized for teachers so that they can says all the updated information from research. Right? And then opportunities to, I would say, in an ideal world to work with and partner with universities so that they actually have this direct communication because, you know, a lot of times researchers who do, cutting edge research, they are, you know, placed in universities. Right? And then, school districts or, you know, Yes. What provides support for teachers to participate in those opportunities. Right? Because a lot of times what happens is You know, teachers are super busy and everyone is super busy. So, you know, and, you know, it's hard for them to find times to actually commit to this continuous development. So, I mean, I think it really requires a whole, you know, not only from teacher, training, development education. You know, I get institutions. Also, policy support policy at multiple levels, you know, policy decisions at the state level. And that trickles down to district levels. And then, all these things together. And I think ultimately, though, You know, what's really what teachers really feel, in their skin is the school, context and school level environment. I think this collaboration really requires, framing of the approach where all these things we're working on these things together and the collaboration kind of mindset not, you know, teacher the evaluation or judgment in high stakes context because that's just not gonna help and that's gonna just discourage teachers. Right. Yeah. I totally agree. I I I did want to, like, touch upon the connection with the school of Ed Ed because one of the things that I was curious about because you talk about the need for that continuous improvement and the collaboration opportunities and such. But from all my experiences in, higher education, like it had like I never was caught to operate that way. And so I'm just curious, like, in order for those systems to be resilient, I have to be I have to have my pre service experience to be similar so that I could make those demands in in service work, but, you know, I don't see that changing in higher ed in the near future. How do you see that, you know, how do we prepare teachers differently so that they are capable of, having those kinds of expectations? I have that thing because that's, that's a complicated, piece. Because it involves multiple layers. I mean, I work in a university I work with, you know, I work actually in teach. I oversee teacher education program in my administrative role, and I also teach in the program, and I also work with you know, teachers in the schools. At the same time, I do research. So I see these at multiple layers. You know, I mean, I think in my mind that there are two at least two pieces here. Institutional support for teacher education program is absolutely necessary. And, you know, it involves money and budget because it does cost money to have high quality researchers and teacher educators work and then work very closely with teachers. And, you know, the funding, system for our teacher education programs. Right? Do we have, you know, safe and secure funding line I mean, that I think is one piece that a lot of times beyond some people certain level, of chain of command, but I think that's one of the important pieces. The other piece is really securing, I guess, high quality instructors and faculty members in teacher education programs. And that has actually, several things, several pieces to, as well, you know, not everyone who does research can teach in this type of, program because this requires a very specialized knowledge. Right? Not only learning about, you know, so we need someone who knows about the content and who has research expertise. Right? But then we need someone who knows about teaching those, you know, pedagogical aspects. We also need someone who actually knows about teaching and in the field. Right? So finding someone who's qualified and have all these qualifications. It's not, very easy. So, you know, that that requires support as well. This also gets back to, I think, gets at I'm really trying to think about pipeline here. Gets, to the PhD, training as well. Right? So PhD programs in education, you know, there are different areas and one area is working with teachers. Do we have enough PhD students or support for PhD students who will work directly with teachers. That's actually a very specific line of work. And that's actually some area an area that actually needs attention as well. I I think that's a great plan. I didn't even realize that segment existed in that space. So, I think to wrap up here the what I've noticed, you know, as you know, across the country, there's a lot of debate around science reading and, you know, there's policies being made. Some states are making a mandatory. Many districts are just rushing to figure out what to do. So, you know, from all of your research and discussions, If you had to give one starting tip to our audience, which are mostly district administrators across the country, What would be one starting tip that you would give them to make sure that they implement science or reading well? I mean, I do follow the literature very closely. So literature meaning scientific literature and studies that are published in academic journals, but I also try to get, you know, updates on the, you know, SMS and all those, you know, feeds on the debate. And there's a lot of noise. I think that, you know, when you hear science of reading, One of the recommendations is really to look into the literature and to find information from someone who has been in this field for long time and who have, track records. The reason why I say this is because there are a lot of, you know, people who are committed to this. However, there is also, noise and financial interest, and there are some voices without a lot of, I guess, credit, credential. That's what I mean. A lot of credential and that creates, I think that's the source of economics. So if you could do a little bit of homework, and to see, you know, to to be able to distinguish the voices from who have real kind of expertise versus who are just kind of feeding into this noise. That will be, I think, a health helpful if you have any specific recommendations, I mean, I will not say names here, but feel free to email me you know, I'll be happy to make some recommendations. Alright. Great. Thank thank you so much for those tips. And, you know, I I think that the noise is real and that is probably not just in science or reading. There's a lot of noise all all over. So, all of us could do a better job filtering, you know, the noise of it and reflecting on, you know, what what's meaningful and what's representative of, you know, high quality products and such. So, well, so Kim, thank you so much for your time and just the tips and advice every time I get an opportunity to chat with you and read new materials. I always learn something new. So thank you again for joining me today. Well, thanks so much for having me.