And hello, everyone. I'm Penny Cia Veri, the CEO of PLC Associates. We are a Scalera's learning company, and I'm so pleased today to be with doctor Jeff Madison. Who is a very accomplished educator, has served in a number of positions, which include past superintendent of Kenestia Greenwood, which he actually led out of the accountability standing into good standing in New York State. He is the current district superintendent of TST Boses in Beautiful, Ethiopia, New York, and he is the past chair of all New York State DSs. Tremendous, expertise and and positions that Doctor. Madison has and has held. In addition, he is currently serving on the blue ribbon commission. For graduation requirements and has served federally on the ESA Commission, taking a look at current issues in education and serving as a member of that very important think tank. So doctor Madison, welcome. Nice to have you. It's good to be with you. Looking forward to the conversation. As am I. So our first question, taking a look at your role as superintendent and district superintendent. What would you say are some of the key initiatives and strategies that make the difference for schools. An issues and strategies for schools, you know, that that could be a very long conversation, just with that. But but key, I think, is really looking at your own results, you know, and being honest about your own results. And the strategy being the communication of those results in a, in a way, that people don't feel threatened that people feel like you're sharing essential information. You can help explain why the results are the way they are. And then get people steering in the right direction to address, what is happening with our children. Makes perfect sense. Getting to some of the root causes. And as you're saying, not being afraid to identify those challenges, own the challenges and then collectively collaboratively with your teams, with your groups to plan for a different kind of outcome in the future. I know you've been very involved in coaching superintendents and helping individuals as they come on, to join a district What is some of your best advice for those new superintendents? We're noticing nationally, I think we have about a thirty percent rate of superintendents moving, transisting, you know, position to position. If not leaving, you know, that particular role. So there's a there's a lot of change and transition going on. What is your best advice for those new superintendents? I think first relationships are everything. And that if you don't have any, you're not gonna be able to lead the districts. So first, you have to invest in your people. The best investment is to listen to them and find out what's really going on in the ground. Often, there's a disconnect between what the governance team thinks they know about the district and what's actually happening in the district. I've had that in the past where there was a perception of an administrative team and they weren't talented or were they were ineffective somehow. And so then when you dig in and you see what they're doing, really all you need to do is just reintroduce them. To the governance team and they find out what the value is of those people. So intelligence gathering is really important. Relationship really important. Listening is most important. I guess the third one is you gotta go slow in order to go fast. So when you dive deep in there and take your time and get to know your organization, better than anybody else knows the organization, better than they know themselves, because you're the one who can actually get the whole thirty thousand foot perspective. Once you have that, then you can start to drive it. But I wouldn't come in And in the first two weeks, say we're we're heading west when, you may not have anyone with you. And you haven't even made a strategy. You don't know where the talents are. You may undo the good, when you're trying to establish a new direction. You know, it's interesting to hear you say go slow in order to go fast. I'm sure the initial thinking is we need to jump right in and plan all kinds of strategies and put together a strategic plan and do all these high profile kinds of things. Is there a period of time that you're thinking as you're going on that listening tour that is is it is appropriate. And and how do you balance that with superintendents probably feeling like all of our constituents are looking at me ready for, you know, point the direction and let's go. So what you're advising that we, you know, take a period of time here. What what do you think is is the appropriate time frame for that? Well, I think the key to the listing tour, especially, is to identify a spot where you can have an early win and I think it starts with first acknowledging good work that went on before you because there was someone you're following in the seat And regardless of how they made their exit, there were a group of people on the front lines of the organization who have done some good work under the direction of the prior person and featuring that, celebrating that good work and building off it. I think sometimes, establishes a new normal for people to realize that they're gonna be appreciated for what they've accomplished. But second, often, it reveals itself something needs to be addressed early. That's when a wise superintendent will strike on that get an early win with the new team. And I would say within the first ninety days, something will reveal itself that you need to go looking. You need to be listening. And, you'll find some themes and things that need to be addressed because people will repeat them. You'll say, oh, I've heard this three different times that this is a thing. And sometimes it's not even the thing that people brought you in there to address, and the governance team may not even know about it. But it's an opportunity for an early win with the new team. Terrific advice. I know when we do strategic planning so often, districts will initially think we're gonna start with a clean sheet of paper. Absolutely not because just as you're saying, honoring those areas that are in place working showing impact and then being able to fill in the pieces of the puzzle. So all schools have different challenges. There are roadblocks. There are constituent groups that just don't wanna go on the on the long walks or the the short journey. However, we're characterizing that. What is what are some of the greatest challenges you know, in your experience that you see schools going through and kind of some guidance or advice for handling it. Yeah. I think we need to reframe that whole perception thing, like that people don't wanna, change. They don't wanna go on the walk. I think we have to acknowledge that the biggest challenge in districts, the biggest force in education is inertia. We have built these structures and this system that was designed for people to have a common experience of education. It's a very public thing to do. We want everyone to have the same opportunities but we don't take the time to reflect on the fact that this system we set up may not be working for every student that we that we're addressing. And so often we set up this system and train people deeply on how to navigate that system, inertia takes hold. It's it's not that they're against change. It's that they wouldn't know how to even if they're told to because they know the system that they're in. Quite often. It worked from for them. So they're going into education because they wanna do one to others, because it was a great experience for them, they wanna have a great experience for kids. So acknowledging that often, they're doing everything for the right reasons, and they're holding on to something because system they believe works because, it it produces a common experience. But guess what? Technology has created a situation where we can individualize schools now. We can individualize the educational experience. I think leveraging the technology you have available to us, that we can get to every student. We can get to know every student very deeply what makes them tick. And I think demonstrating this, to the people within this system is the way to kind of break down the inertia and to create a new little more open system that can be individualized and in accepting the fact that people are very comfortable in that system because it worked for them. They believed it did. They didn't realize that it wasn't working for other people while it was working for them. And I think educating this new generation of educators that, yeah, it worked for you, but it's not gonna work for everybody else. And we cannot afford to leave anybody behind. This is for every student, the public institution, and having something that's equitable means that everyone gets what they need. We're not looking for equal that everyone has a common experience. We're looking for equity where everyone gets exactly what they need. Sounds like a wonderful school system. I know when we worked together in Kansas, Greenwood. It was a very short period of time before you got that call from the New York State Department education that said, guess what? You're now a good standing. And I remember that, in particular, the mathematics scores were sky high and I think second in the region. So major gains in a short period of time, accountability and co accountability. How do you establish that? And what are some of the the key messages, critical messages that those in a superintendency or district leadership should put forth so that Everyone knows and understands. We all have a contribution margin, and we're all in this together. And yes, indeed, we will be holding ourselves collectively accountable. Yeah. I think it's honesty about results. Honesty about the effort people have put in to trying to reach children, honesty about, the challenges that the students are coming. To school with. I think often we, we, we account we will say that it's excuse making, but it really is people need to share the rationale for why things are happening, in their schools under, under their care. But then we acknowledge it. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. These students are coming with really tough challenges. They're not like we were They didn't have a common experience. Often, we have we have sibling gap. We have where an older student's experience in education was completely different than their younger siblings. And we have to be adaptable, and we're in a system that's not that adaptable. And I think just putting it out in front of them and letting our professionals, speak about the results, then dream up. Here's what we would do if we really wanted to reach each one of children. And then it's the superintendent's job and the govern governance team's job to resource it to get behind it and to make sure everyone, every professional gets they need, so every student gets what they need. Go out and get your resources. When we looked at this a system that was not achieving what it should achieve. We said, okay. Everyone gets everything. We're gonna put it out in front of everyone. Everyone's gonna get the training. We're gonna say this special of people gets training and learns how to work together better. We're gonna leverage a system so that everyone gets better. And starts looking closely at student results and closely at students one child at a time. You know, so often when people are working together collaboratively and you're in a group where obviously you have the superintendent, the district superintendent, there can be intimidation and that can, you know, have a negative impact on people being able to share their information expertise. So if if if you're looking at the qualities of of great leadership, are there certain terms or or traits that you think Really matter most. Number one is humility. Know where you came from. Know that you're fallible yourself that you don't make perfect decisions acknowledge when you don't acknowledge when you blew it. You know, I've made autonomous stakes in leadership. I've made a lot of decisions on things that just did they end up not working. But I don't stubbornly sit sit with them and continue to plug away with something that's not work. Working and just move to another direction, get more feedback, make a new decision. That's why I always tell people who are new to, like, a board role or new on a team at a school district, say in the math department, the English department, who may have ideas and their ideas are never accepted by the team and put forward. And I say the way you handle not being in the majority with those ideas, will determine if they will come back to your idea in the future. Because if their idea fails, guess who they're gonna turn to. And if you have been mature about it and professional about it. They're gonna turn she said, you know what? We went this direction. We don't wanna try, your idea. And so I think being open to that, that Here's the things the con the consensus we built. We tried this. It didn't work. We also had a group of people that thought This is what we should try to do. So we're gonna pilot that right now, make sure it gets done. I'm gonna resource it, get behind it, and celebrate it, if it achieves what we're looking for. So I think humility and really openness to new ideas don't get stuck, in a singular mindset that there's only one way to do things. And you'd be surprised how creative people are. And I one of the things I say often with my team is serendipity is better than a good plan. And really, a a leader looks for those serendipity moments, something that's kinda surprising or interesting that wow. That might be the solution. And then striking, going for it, even if it's a little bit unorthodox, because sometimes you need to throw the plan out because, the solution presents itself. Very refreshing, humility. So I know you've had many experiences in terms of setting districts and organizations up for a major change initiative. What kinds of things do you say to stakeholder groups as we're about to approach something that's really large and amorphous for the organization. It's going to really impact all levels of of how we operate. How do you set people up for Such big ticket items. Yeah. I think the first thing you need to do, and it goes back to the whole relationships matter thing. Is you need to get everybody connected and get them behind the same mission. So, for example, we had a pretty big hilda client at one place I was, a superintendent. And, I wanted them all to understand that we can't leave a single student behind, but this is about every child. And so I had them all just acknowledge I asked How many have how many of you stand up if you have a kid in this school? Stand up if you have, relative going to this school. Stand up if your neighbor's kids go to this school. You know, it didn't take long that everyone had a relationship with a kid in the whole district. Everybody So getting them you gotta break them down to the thing they have in common so they understand we're all here for the same reason. Yes. You might be in a different department. You may be doing a different thing in the organization. And maybe this one thing we need to work on to get better at isn't the thing that is directly in your department, but it's the problem for all of us. It that the worst experience for any person with our district is the perception of the entire district. So you're only a stronger weak weakest link kind of philosophy. And that it's you bring everybody in on the team. The the mass intelligence can produce a solution. And I think then you start moving forward, and you tell people, here's what this group is doing. Isn't that a cool thing that they tried? And when it's successful, let them know what's successful. Often, they want to replicate things. I would often, when someone did something right, they start to make some positive movements I would say, now you gotta go present that at a conference. Go present this to professionals. Share your idea. Get some criticism about it. Get some feedback on it. Share your idea, because then you master the idea because that I always say the teacher always wins. Right? Because When they get ready to instruct, they master the material or the learning that they want the students to have. So it's the same principle for professional always wins when they share their good idea. I think getting into common purpose celebrating accomplishments, sharing intelligence, and then going out and sharing it with the world, wherever that world may be, is the thing that really drives a stake in. They will never want to leave their really good idea that's effective. Once they've shared it with someone else, especially a colleague, because then they know they're accountable for doing the things they said they were doing. It doesn't have to be the supervisor holding accountable. There's this positive peer pressure of sharing a good idea with another professional that locks in best practice. You know, it's so amazing to borrow from Patty again and collective efficacy. We know that that effect size is is sky high. So Actually, what you're doing here is pushing people along that path to get to a higher level and then populate and have that domino effect occur throughout the organization. Yeah. Wonderful. So as we're talking to superintendents now close to September, everyone is raring to go, you know, ready for the opener planning their their key messages. Looking at where we are right now in education, sailing into this academic year, what's your best advice for ladies and gentlemen, schools, let's get what right. What what should we be thinking about and focusing on as we go into this academic year? I think we need to be the dealers in hope. There's a lot of challenges in our world, a lot of challenges in our culture, we have to be the place that provides the solution. We have everybody. We have everything from the community comes into our school. And we can even look at we can either look at that as a burden or as an opportunity. And I think we need to embrace the opportunity. We communicate with everyone. Everyone has an investment, in our schools. And we need to be the ones that can point to two North for a kid. It's you know, it doesn't matter where they come came from. They can achieve something and and create the life that that they choose. I think that's the idea of a individualizing education is freeing our system up enough. So that young people can pursue their hopes and dreams. And when we've done that, not and not put out a cookie cutter group of people, then everything will does get better. I think that kind of, freedom with responsibility and along with building some talent and skills is what makes, our country great and can make our economy great and provide a lot of opportunities for people from all walks of life. So right. And it's important to remember, and I think sometimes we could possibly get lost and all of the things that we have to accomplish. But remember, when those students walked through that door, every single day there you are with that positive attitude, that optimism, and the we're so glad you're here. We're here to support you students all the way through. Well put, well said. Doctor. Medicine, thank you so much for sharing your expertise and information this morning. I know it's gonna be wonderful for the field to hear all of the caveats and advice that you're able to offer. And all the best as you move into a wonderful year for your bossies. We appreciate you. Thank you very much for and the time to have the conversation. It's a pleasure.
