Will the Election Impact the Future of Drones?

Welcome back to drones in America by market scale I'm your host. Frankly I am a partner in the unmanned aircraft systems team leader at the law firm of atoms and Reese. I'm joined today by Justin polls. He's a senior policy advisor at akin Gump based out of the Washington d.c. office. Justin welcome to the program. Thanks so much for having me. Grant appreciate it. Suggesting you've been in this industry for a while now. And even more so you've been heavily involved in government relations. You're very well connected you know with the federal government. And you kind of have a unique insight on what's going on in Washington d.c. and America right now. So let's get into it. First Tell me a little bit about your background how you became involved with government relations. Yes so it's a long and winding road, as I say, but it basically started in high school with a guy named Martin O'Malley was running for mayor of Baltimore and showed up to our high school. I heard him speak. And I thought was really cool. And I went and started helping on his campaign for mayor. Eight years later, he was running for governor and I was working. I end up working on his campaign and out in the inner of their eyes. I started working on Capitol Hill. I eventually went over and worked for the governor when I was asked to run for state office. I transferred and ended up in the male Aviation Administration kind of working with the governor's office there. So that's kind of my entree into the aviation policy world. And then from the Maryland Aviation Administration I wanted to do more policy work get from my work back on Capitol Hill. I wanted to get back to the federal level. So I ended up becoming the vice president of regulatory legislative affairs, the American Association of airport executives where we represented all the airports in the US. And it was there really that kind of drones or just coming on the scene you know the airports were starting to be brought into the discussion there. And I kind of led that effort. And while IEEE I served on for aviation rulemaking committees having to do with us. I started conference still goes to today on US policy, and then I also started a coalition called the 26 coalition, which was most all of the mandate aviation associations that came together and started focusing on US US policy and safety. And then also was in the steering committee of the program promote. You served on the joint advisory committees multiple subcommittee of multiple task force task groups unmanned aircraft safety team you name it. And kind of started getting involved from there. And then kind of after six years almost six years at tripoli I started a new company with my partner called a global and we're a management consulting firm that really focused on urban air mobility and some US integration as well. And some other touch on some other advanced aviation areas with electrification. Zach nature and did really well in a short period time that a lot of work with Nasa did work with the DVD Williams and other government agencies and eventually that was absorbed by Hyundai. It was their ability in it now. And I came over to jump in and kind of started this new movie helped start this new aviation advanced aviation practice there. Well my colleagues at right. And you know I know Jennifer rector. She's pleasant and absolutely wonderful. Great getting to know her as well. And I know you worked closely with her and are also involved in the telecommunications space, which is interesting because I feel like there's such a connection between telecom and drones and I think we're going to be seeing more and more overlap in those two areas. So that's really cool to see. Now tell me at aching gut, what are some of the current policy issues your pack. Yeah So you know we have, like I said, we focus on US integration advanced air mobility. So a lot of the air taxi models. And so forth. But one of the big projects that we worked on was kind of a global harmonization of basically a regulatory structure a five year road map, if you will, of kind of what do we need to put in place now in order just to enable advanced air mobility moving forward. So that we don't encounter the same regulatory bottleneck that we've seen and are still seeing really in the small US industry. So we're trying to get ahead of the curve a little bit. So we've done quite a bit of work there working not only with a lot of stakeholders here in the US. But also in Europe, in Asia, and the kind of Australian content as well. So that was that's a really exciting project that we've worked on. And then the other area that we really focused because of my colleague especially my colleague cliff sweet in his experience through ICH and the World Food Program and his work at FAA we really dig into certification as well. So type certification, you know we work with some clients on. We also work on part 135 you'll see something like things like that in just a number of other integration issues partnership issues work COVID work as well. But the response was with you. Yes so there's a lot of exciting stuff out there. Sure there definitely is urban area ability is becoming an increasingly popular topic that's being discussed by those outside the trade industry. People are realizing that urban air mobility is absolutely necessary in order for us to integrate drones into the National airspace and to be able to put drones and manned aircraft and other vehicles all on the same grid. What is your opinion of how urban air mobility has evolved in the past two years. Let's say. Well I think the biggest thing with urban air mobility is it is one of the biggest needs and what has started to happen with the past two years is we really need greater attention from not only the regulatory agencies, some of the tangential agencies with jurisdiction and then we also need the public acceptance of that. So the reality is I think we're going to have electric flying cars. I mean, I think that is inevitable. You know whether your time frame of that kind of depends on your opinion and the way you see things as far as the certification path and technology, the battery technology a lot of those technical hurdles. But the real deciding factors will be what type of investment does the federal government provide here, not just in R&D dollars but also in kind of that regulatory foundation. And we need to see more focus from this from the FAA you know up until very recently, there's one person full time on YouTube urban air mobility or advanced mobility. Mobility to call it. So I think now there's starting to be a greater focus at the FAA on that really trying to look at some certification pathways for some of those vehicles, so that's I think that's a big step that's happened in the past couple of years. And then also on the public acceptance, which I also include in that the city and the state and local governments as well as former Nasa associate administrator John Shinn said in a meeting once that without the ground infrastructure without that support framework for all of these are just a bunch of flying science projects. And I think that couldn't be more true. I think we really need to gain that public acceptance and to find a way to fit within that intermodal connectivity within the smart city platform and concept and a lot of these cities. And that's a real challenge, because even when you're talking to sometimes one or two contacts in a given city that are really excited about this when you actually go to implement it through all of the various agencies at the city level in kind of approvals that you need at the state level as well. You find that this is kind of a really Mason and foreign topic to discuss. And we saw that I mean. And I've seen that firsthand. You know when you're talking to that certain the chief technology officer or city know they're all in on that. And then I went to a metropolitan planning organization conference and thought that this at least be kind of floating in the atmosphere there. Most of those folks had no clue of what urban air mobility advanced air mobility was. And they didn't even know that flying cars air taxis air metro was something they should even be remotely thinking about. So we need to make sure we're connecting the dots as an industry and kind of creating that awareness people often talk about the Jetsons when they're talking about trends. And I remember the late 80s, early 90s watching the cartoon and you had waiter not waiters yet had robots that were serving as maids and butlers and you had flying cars there. I was recently at a hotel in New York. And I ordered takeout. And I opened the door because I heard a knock or a buzz in a robot standing there. And here. Here's your food and I'm just thinking you know this is so Jetsons and we really are moving into that era where people will be getting into these flying cars these flying made cars. Now it's obviously still a good bit of time away, but we are making progress in urban air mobility is such an important concept being able to visualize how we put these cars in the air while still noting that you have to contend with manned aviation vehicles on the ground objects on the ground. Now one thing I do want to ask and this is a question that I've gotten recently. I don't know the answer. Do so. You know what is the difference between urban air mobility and advance air mobility. Are they the same. I know advanced my bill is a Nasa term right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah you're exactly right. So I think we've seen just in my work in this field for the past couple of years, I've seen that the terminology changed right here. So I think that's going to continue to happen. Generally speaking, when we talk about the concept of air taxis electric beetle aircraft air metro models and eventually potentially personal air mobility platforms. The broader concept. I think that Nasa especially is trying to. Is talking about now and trying to get traction on the advanced air mobility. So it's not specific to an urban environment. It's really kind of a broader than that. How do you connect an urban environment to super urban environments or to road environments. Because you know while this may play an early role in an urban setting providing connectivity to remote areas, rural areas or look at Alaska, where they rely so much on his solution for connectivity for poor health and safety issues, food supply medicine you know all of those types of issues. It goes much broader than just urban mobility. It's really kind of has a broader appeal. So it's trying to shift that language a little bit through the focus on cities and expanded ideas. We're really just looking towards aviation technology to kind of a system in our daily lives. No, that's a good point. And we're seeing a lot of that in the telecommunications industry as well. The focus being on rural getting broadband to rural communities in COVID you're talking about a time when many parents are having to homeschool their children. And without trustworthy internet connection is difficult to do. So I suspect I see some similar issue with drones at some point. So that's a good point. And I'm glad that Nasa and other government decision makers are thinking ahead to how this impact will be used as well. So Justin. I want to go right into what I think, is going to be one of the more interesting points of our discussion and that we kind of have a big date coming up in two weeks. November 3. I think is the date on something called an election. I know a lot of people haven't really given too much thought about it this year because 2020 has been the gift that keeps on giving. There have been one thing that's one thing has come up after another a you never know what's going to happen. And now we're in October surprise mode. So anything's you know anything's possible as we're seeing. You are very experienced in government relations and a lot of the decision makers from both parties. And in fact, you're involved are you are participating somewhat in Joe Biden's campaign right. That's correct. Yeah So what are you doing with Joe Biden's campaign. So I know right. I do have quite a bit experience in campaigns 20 of them overall, I've run myself twice. I know what it's like to lose. And I know what it's like to win. I've been on both sides. And you know personally. Yeah you're right. I'm supporting Joe Biden and have been helping his campaign in a number of ways over the past 18 months or so whether being out in Iowa knocking doors and the freezing cold serving as precinct captain making calls helping you know, wherever I can on other issues. Yeah, it's been out there. But you know overall, I think despite the partisan side of it you know this election marks a major turning point for the country. And which direction we're going to go. So it's really interesting to see what's going to happen there. There's a lot of passion on both sides. Despite the numbers. I think it's probably going to be closer than we think. And it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out. And how will play out in our industry and the transportation infrastructure sectors innovation sectors. And it will certainly be interesting to see how that unfolds absolutely. And I've gotten questions from clients and other people in the industry. What happens if Donald Trump gets re-elected. What happens if Joe Biden gets elected what does that mean for the drone industry. When a lot of people may not know. Of course, a good bet do is that President Obama was actually a champion of the drone industry. And he really embraced this idea of we need to remain a leader in aviation. And Donald Trump has continued on that legacy. So I'm interested to get your take on this my perception is that the industry is at least from a policy standpoint, you're going to have a president, whether it's President Biden or President Trump that's going to support this industry and support the use of drones in commercial applications. Would you agree with that. Absolutely I mean, there's no doubt about that. I mean, for example, you just said kind of where I fall personally in this election, but the reality is it doesn't matter, especially at the Department of Transportation level of commerce. There's areas that the SEC where we had interaction that interstate doesn't. At some point of politics doesn't matter. You know the folks at that level have been great to work with. And obviously anyone in the industry would be looking forward to working with them after election if it's Donald Trump referenced by the administration. So you know we all. And that's what I think sometimes that gets lost these days. You know we all end up at the end of the day, we're all on the same team. We'll have to work together. And we can't forget that. But you know we've already seen what the Trump administration has to offer and that is I mean, they're committed to moving forward. Undersecretary Charles leadership and the FAA of course, as well. There is a commitment to prioritize this technology. I think they see the value in this moving forward. And I can tell you that certainly, that's going to be the same thing under a Biden administration. So it's really just a matter of the PES as I say, it's really priorities and personalities is going to be the difference. You know if there's a different administration who comes in the new personalities you might be working with that they have a person more personal experience in one particular area versus another. And where are the prior priorities may shift a little. But the reality is that we're going to be moving forward toward a technologically advanced more technologically advanced society. And that is going to require a kind of regulatory framework that we've been working on for so long at the FAA and all of the R&D work at Nasa and so forth as well. So I think nobody should be freaking out one way or another, whether the Jordan judiciary is going to live or die on this election. I think drones are here to stay. Advanced aviation is here to stay. And I think you may have a different look at things from slightly different perspectives. But I think this industry is moving forward regardless. I agree completely. You brought up partisanship and I read a story yesterday. No I was not able to watch the fourth day of the Supreme Court hearings for Amy Barrett and I read that senators Graham and Feinstein hugged each other at the end. And complement each other and said, even though the debate was the conference was contentious. How they enjoy working together and they respect one another in which I love stories like that. I love what it's like. I love stories about how justices Ginsburg and Scalia were best friends. I love these stories where despite opposing views people have come together. But you know I immediately saw headlines from both parties condemning this senators for hugging. That's in my opinion, that's what's wrong right now with the world really in general, but we I mean, we aren't able to appreciate each other's differences. The way we should be do the way, perhaps we were able to at some point not too long ago. This for us just become very partisan as countries become very past partisan. And I thought them hugging it out and saying nice things about her was a great gesture and her hope that these sides can work together. But this is not one of those situations. The drone industry is going to be fine. No Matt, you don't have an anti drone and a program candidate that's comforting to know. What do you think in the end, this is a little bit off script, but I am curious now because you're so heavily involved in Washington d.c. and what goes on there. What do you think can make this problem better. This partisanship problem is two relationships. It happens rather. I mean, I guess you can look at that brawler and some of the things that happen at the top level. And we could talk for hours about what is making America more divisive. Know there are a lot of issues that are associated with that. And kind of under kind of undertones that are pulling us apart from each other. And it makes it more difficult for individuals to kind of bridge that gap when there are structural issues pulling us apart with what we see in the media social media and how that is set up every day. Those are kind of issues that need to be addressed at a greater scale. But what can we do. It's for example, right here. I work in government. I work with agencies right now. That's the Trump administration. But I have no problem right. Saying on this program that I'm supporting Joe Biden and that's because I think that most people would hesitate in saying that because of retribution but that has no bearing whatsoever on how I work with folks in the administration. You know we can have our political or political opinions and differences but then that will have no bearing on how we can work with each other to get things done. And it shouldn't. And I think that's an example that we need to set that you can separate. You know those types of opinions, which are important for the political and kind of Democratic discourse in this country. We have to be able to intelligently calmly talk about those policies and priorities and debate them so that we can be part of that process. But at the same time, we have to be to be civil and building relationships with folks with differing opinions. You know having a diverse group of stakeholders engage in any discussion having a diverse group of friends you know that you draw your influences from. Those are things that are vitally important. And I've always you know I've always kind of prided myself on that where I'm not I'm a volunteer firefighter and in a very, very conservative area here in Maryland. And you know all of my friends from the fire department are pretty staunchly ultra ultra conservative. And then I kind of have I have a lot of friends from d.c. in different areas that have very different backgrounds. And I always kind of really like to kind of try to bridge the gap and hear both sides. And really get a sense where you can empathize where I can almost put myself in position of either side. And I put it in kind of a unique kind of position to be able to forge a path forward that that may resemble something like compromise a dirty word. And one of the things I want to add Justin is you brought up not fearing reprisal I think that's important is a lot of people are scared to say how they're going to vote. And they shouldn't be, but they are. If you're voting for anybody. And you support socialism if you're voting for Donald Trump, you're racist. And I think both of those things are unfair. It is unfair to categorize someone like that based on whose policies they want to support. That's just not. But that's the country. We live in. I think you're absolutely right about the media. I think that there are forces at play that kind of do prey upon that divisiveness. And I'm not suggesting there are politicians out there they don't contribute to that bias. But but you're absolutely right in this media contest back to dragons. One of the things that we always talk about on this program is the role the media plays in public perception. Prior to COVID, you would have to I mean, it's a needle in a Haystack finding a positive trend story of the 90s helped in that regard. It's no one's happy COVID 19 happened. But there have been some positive trend stories that have come out of it. Also some negative ones in the midst of the COVID 19 test deliveries and the delivery of books to students things like that. You'll have your occasional Oh, this drone went to a nude beach and filmed everyone or this dry wind and screamed at people. I mean but you are you do start to see some positive stories peeked through. Do you think we run the risk once COVID does subside. Do we run the risk of falling back into a pattern where the media reports on drones solely from the negative lands yes. No, no. Definitely I think we definitely do because of the way it's structured. You know whatever is going to get the most ratings and sometimes it's subconscious but I think you're going to get reporting on what gets the largest rise out of people. If you have a really, really good feel good story about how drugs save lives from wildfires out West you'll get play on that. But more often than not, it's going to be stories that scare people, for burns being used by or being weaponized by police or they being used for spying or are they being used by other countries you know to spy on us. Yeah, it's going to be things like this that we're going to hear more on. And that's why it's actually really important, I think, for the German industry to think more so in a unified matter from the social kind of perspective on this social emotional kind of angle that we need to take a little more of a leadership role in leading that. So mean, what I mean by that is we need to invest and ensure that drones are being seen in movies and a good light, rather than what you'll see a cash camera sonic the hedgehog is the reason when I watch it is that the drones come out and kill everybody is just really I mean, it's just doesn't really help. I mean in every movie you look at me with just some of the ones I mean, it was at Olympus well angels fall on one of the gas projects. That's it. That's a big one, you have ready player Iron Man spider-man 2 player 1 there's all of these drones but nine times out of 10, maybe more than that they're being shown in a negative light, which is a bit ironic considering that most of those motion pictures are being filmed with them. So there is absolutely necessary evil that said that's a great point. That's an absolutely great point. No it's something that we constantly are striving to do. And I think a lot of adjusting deals with educating local and state decision makers and community engagement because what I've come to find is that the regulatory environment on a federal level is more likely to progress. If the FAA and other federal agencies know that state and local support is there that buy in is there. And I feel like if you can just get through to the right people in the state and local level that helps. It does help. You've got to engage with the community and let these people know these are not just weapons they can do. They're capable of great things. And here's a B and C So I completely agree with you said, we're about our time. But I want to finish by asking you what will you be doing on November 3. No kidding aside from watching the returns that night. I mean, during the day. What was it like working on the campaign during those last couple days. What what will you be doing. Yeah I'm on my plan at the moment is to be doing voter protection in Pennsylvania voter protection. OK So making sure people are able to not be harassed by pollsters and things like that essentially. I mean Yeah. I mean, the broad idea there is to make sure that people that want to vote have the information that they need. They're able to show up without any problems getting into the poll and vote regardless of party to basically just make sure that the process is working is everybody expecting I'm assuming everybody is expecting a lower turnout by virtue of the fact that many people will have already voted via email. I don't mean turnout in general. I just mean on election day. Yeah many people have already voted. So do you think we're going to see a smaller amount of people. I have no idea to be honest with you. I'm completely speculating just to be clear at this point. But I mean, we have had obviously record people voting by mail. We have record people in many areas voting early. And you know you can follow that logic to say maybe there's not as many people left to vote in person, but it's May this may just be an indication that this may be a very high turnout year. And there's certainly some evidence to back that up at the moment. So I think we as a country need to be prepared to handle that because I may now ask him slightly on a soapbox. But I mean, regardless of party you know one of the things that can be a little concerning is the process our electoral process. And we want to make sure that people are able to vote in other areas right now where people work with hours entire day almost to vote. We want to ensure that if people want to show up and vote they're able to do so in a reasonable way. And exercise their right. So anything we can do or anyone else can do to try to help that process, I think we're going to do it. Boston Justin would like to see you do to the extent you have power is made sure we find out that night who wins because to me what many voters dread the most is drawing this out just like Bush v Gore you know and you've already had both sides say they recognize that there's the potential race, especially since voting laws have changed and there will be the counting of ballots that are postmarked on November 3. But that come in later. You've had the governor. I believe those Michigan say they're not going to rush the process, they're going to make sure everything's done right. Maybe it's just the impatience in me, but I would rather almost regardless of who wins. I would just rather know. So we're done with election season over. We're moving on you to have a lame duck president or gearing up for another four years, whatever. But is drawn up is the suspense it's the drama and it's the media attention that a contest brings so it's my sincere wish is that whoever wins that they win by a landslide and that may be wishful thinking. But at this point, I just I don't know that 2020 can take a long, drawn out contentious battle. I mean, what are your. Right now. I think you're right. I mean Well, just from my perspective. I'd really like to know the election night for sure. But I think you're right with everything that's been going on up to this point, we're in a fragile state. I believe you know this country is a bit of a powder keg and any uncertainty drawing out of the process kind of opens the door for potential bad things to happen. And we certainly don't want that. I'm not saying, I think it will. But it just increases that likelihood a little bit. So if we can if we can have an answer on election night. I think that's better for us, or at least soon afterwards. You know I think that's better for the system. It gives more confidence in the system. And you know ultimately, I know the stakes are in charge. They have processes in place. So I mean, I think the system will work. And I think we'll get an answer pretty promptly but we'll just have to brace for impact if it draws out and be ready for it. And I know both sides are there. I can say that much. There's a lot of thought going into what happens if we don't have an answer on election night. And how can we best prepare for that. Well, like I said red or blue. I'm hoping for a landslide. Of course, I care who wins. And of course, I have my own personal opinions. But you're absolutely right that uncertainty kind of like the first days of the 90s not knowing what's next. The unjust the unrest we've had in the streets the COVID, obviously just this has been a hell of a year. And I would hate to see it be exacerbated by law. So fingers crossed that we find out November 3. Jess Sims. Thank you so much for being on the program. Congratulations on everything you're doing. Good luck with your campaign. I know you guys are working hard. I know it's down to the wire, and you're definitely probably put your efforts in certain states. I wish you guys the best of luck, and Thanks again for being on the program. And I will chat with you soon. Thanks so much. Grant really appreciate being with you. Please tune in next week for the next episode of drones in America by Martin skin.